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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    You're basically reiterating my point then that Kra001 wasnt found in the Samus culture but several hundred kilometers from it's most eastern point.
    Maybe we misunderstood each other then. I wasn't trying to argue kra001 himself was from the Samus' culture. Just that he was in close enough proximity, that a related population could have resided in Samus.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I agree, which is why I keep pointing out that it really doesnt make sense to think this population was deeply nested in the Altai region.

    Somewhere in the vicinity of the Angara river, perhaps north or east of it seems to make way more sense to me.
    I never said deeply nested, ~2300BC they would have been recent migrants from farther East.

    The Angara was populated by Serovo/Glazkovo. If the Cis-Baikal samples are anything to go by, this population was rich in Q, some N1c(xL1026) and not kra001-like.

    Northeast of the Angara was the Ymyakhtakh culture. Closely related to kra001 and probably sharing a similar origin in Trans-Baikal, but still not an exact match.

    Connecting the dots here, we have kra001, a slightly divergent pre-N-L1026 sample from Nefteprovod 2 (2336-2135BC) and rumored N-L1026 from Seima-Turbino (~2000BC).

    IMO, it makes sense to look for a N-L1026*, kra001-like population somewhere in between. Perhaps near the Upper-Ob.

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    There are plenty of rumors floating around concerning unpublished samples from Seima-Turbino sites. For those who have seen these results, is there any information about who's publishing them or if they even are being published?

    Standardized Ape, can you say where you saw the results for the N2 sample in Altai?

    In this study there are radiocarbon dating's obtained from human remains. Bones were analyzed from: Rostovka, Sopka 2/4B, Sopka 2/4C, Tartas 1, Satyga 16 and the Pepkinskii Kurgan.

    I have been assuming that this is where aDNA is coming from, especially considering of the rarity of human remains in S-T sites. Although, I have no actual evidence for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    There are plenty of rumors floating around concerning unpublished samples from Seima-Turbino sites. For those who have seen these results, is there any information about who's publishing them or if they even are being published?

    Standardized Ape, can you say where you saw the results for the N2 sample in Altai?

    In this study there are radiocarbon dating's obtained from human remains. Bones were analyzed from: Rostovka, Sopka 2/4B, Sopka 2/4C, Tartas 1, Satyga 16 and the Pepkinskii Kurgan.

    I have been assuming that this is where aDNA is coming from, especially considering of the rarity of human remains in S-T sites. Although, I have no actual evidence for this.
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.
    Very exciting!
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.
    I can't wait for that Proto-Uralic paper. Sounds like the search for the homeland is shifting East in a hurry. Thanks for letting us know about it!

    Those three distinct groups all buried next to each other is pretty fascinating. Sounds to me like foreigners from the East and West + locals.

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    Judging by anthropology, Rostovka, which belongs to the Samus culture, is a very mixed population. Relatively typical N1a should be in Ust-Tartas and Odino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Judging by anthropology, Rostovka, which belongs to the Samus culture, is a very mixed population. Relatively typical N1a should be in Ust-Tartas and Odino.
    In Marchenko et al. 2017, human remains were analyzed from burial 24 of the Preobrazhenka 6 site, which is classified as a part of the Odino culture. He was buried with a Seima-Turbino-type spear.

    Ust-Tartas and later Odino are both continuations of earlier, Baraba Neolithic populations aren't they? Why do you think they would belong to Y-hg N1a?
    Last edited by Zelto; Today at 11:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.
    This sounds very interesting!
    If the samples match spatio-temporally with Proto-Uralic area in the Volga-Kama region, then we have at least 3 different roots, any of which could be connected to the Uralic language line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    I can't wait for that Proto-Uralic paper. Sounds like the search for the homeland is shifting East in a hurry.
    Late Proto-Uralic homeland does not move based on genetic result, because only linguistic methods can reach the language. However, we may get some new, narrowed down possibilities about the location of Pre-Proto-Uralic speakers.
    Last edited by Jaska; Today at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Early PII loanwords follow regular sound changes in all Uralic branches. And I think also are spread more evenly. Thus Uralic community was rather compact and close. However at times of taking up Agro substrate it was already spread out and this layer of loanwords became irregular phonetically and spread asymmetrically.

    Dunno what to make of it normal logic wise :-)
    The processes were very probably different:
    1. Visiting Aryans acted on the Pre- and Late Proto-Uralic area, leaving superstrate loanwords there.
    2. West Uralic protodialect spread to the Upper Volga--Oka area, achieving substrate loanwords from the local Palaeo-European agriculturalists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    The processes were very probably different:
    1. Visiting Aryans acted on the Pre- and Late Proto-Uralic area, leaving superstrate loanwords there.
    2. West Uralic protodialect spread to the Upper Volga--Oka area, achieving substrate loanwords from the local Palaeo-European agriculturalists.
    While I don’t disagree to agricultural substrate in general, but do we have an agricultural non-IE/non-Fatyanovo archeological culture candidate at Upper Volga - Oka at (was it?) ~2000 BCE?

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