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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

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    There are plenty of rumors floating around concerning unpublished samples from Seima-Turbino sites. For those who have seen these results, is there any information about who's publishing them or if they even are being published?

    Standardized Ape, can you say where you saw the results for the N2 sample in Altai?

    In this study there are radiocarbon dating's obtained from human remains. Bones were analyzed from: Rostovka, Sopka 2/4B, Sopka 2/4C, Tartas 1, Satyga 16 and the Pepkinskii Kurgan.

    I have been assuming that this is where aDNA is coming from, especially considering of the rarity of human remains in S-T sites. Although, I have no actual evidence for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    There are plenty of rumors floating around concerning unpublished samples from Seima-Turbino sites. For those who have seen these results, is there any information about who's publishing them or if they even are being published?

    Standardized Ape, can you say where you saw the results for the N2 sample in Altai?

    In this study there are radiocarbon dating's obtained from human remains. Bones were analyzed from: Rostovka, Sopka 2/4B, Sopka 2/4C, Tartas 1, Satyga 16 and the Pepkinskii Kurgan.

    I have been assuming that this is where aDNA is coming from, especially considering of the rarity of human remains in S-T sites. Although, I have no actual evidence for this.
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.
    Very exciting!
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.
    I can't wait for that Proto-Uralic paper. Sounds like the search for the homeland is shifting East in a hurry. Thanks for letting us know about it!

    Those three distinct groups all buried next to each other is pretty fascinating. Sounds to me like foreigners from the East and West + locals.

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    Judging by anthropology, Rostovka, which belongs to the Samus culture, is a very mixed population. Relatively typical N1a should be in Ust-Tartas and Odino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Judging by anthropology, Rostovka, which belongs to the Samus culture, is a very mixed population. Relatively typical N1a should be in Ust-Tartas and Odino.
    In Marchenko et al. 2017, human remains were analyzed from burial 24 of the Preobrazhenka 6 site, which is classified as a part of the Odino culture. He was buried with a Seima-Turbino-type spear.

    Ust-Tartas and later Odino are both continuations of earlier, Baraba Neolithic populations aren't they? Why do you think they would belong to Y-hg N1a?
    Last edited by Zelto; 04-14-2021 at 11:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Those might be the samples that I'm aware of. They should be published soon, specifically in a paper looking at the Proto-Uralic homeland question, but who the hell knows when exactly?

    I'm not aware of any N2 samples. This is what I'm aware of...

    R1a-Z93 and very Sintashta-like

    N-L1026 and very Nganasan-like

    Some sort of Q and WSHG-like

    I can't remember exactly, but I think one of the N-L1026 samples might be from Rostovka, but not representative of the other samples from there.
    This sounds very interesting!
    If the samples match spatio-temporally with Proto-Uralic area in the Volga-Kama region, then we have at least 3 different roots, any of which could be connected to the Uralic language line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    I can't wait for that Proto-Uralic paper. Sounds like the search for the homeland is shifting East in a hurry.
    Late Proto-Uralic homeland does not move based on genetic result, because only linguistic methods can reach the language. However, we may get some new, narrowed down possibilities about the location of Pre-Proto-Uralic speakers.
    Last edited by Jaska; 04-14-2021 at 08:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Early PII loanwords follow regular sound changes in all Uralic branches. And I think also are spread more evenly. Thus Uralic community was rather compact and close. However at times of taking up Agro substrate it was already spread out and this layer of loanwords became irregular phonetically and spread asymmetrically.

    Dunno what to make of it normal logic wise :-)
    The processes were very probably different:
    1. Visiting Aryans acted on the Pre- and Late Proto-Uralic area, leaving superstrate loanwords there.
    2. West Uralic protodialect spread to the Upper Volga--Oka area, achieving substrate loanwords from the local Palaeo-European agriculturalists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    The processes were very probably different:
    1. Visiting Aryans acted on the Pre- and Late Proto-Uralic area, leaving superstrate loanwords there.
    2. West Uralic protodialect spread to the Upper Volga--Oka area, achieving substrate loanwords from the local Palaeo-European agriculturalists.
    While I don’t disagree to agricultural substrate in general, but do we have an agricultural non-IE/non-Fatyanovo archeological culture candidate at Upper Volga - Oka at (was it?) ~2000 BCE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    While I don’t disagree to agricultural substrate in general, but do we have an agricultural non-IE/non-Fatyanovo archeological culture candidate at Upper Volga - Oka at (was it?) ~2000 BCE?
    Linguistically yes: there are a plenty of words which had non-Uralic consonant clusters and which are not IE, either. Names of 'oak', 'maple' and 'nut' restrict the contacts to the European broad-leaved forests, where these trees were present and where the West Uralic languages dispersed.

    Archaeologically there are cultures overlapping each other, giving influences to each other. It is impossible to guess a language from the archaeological data. Ancient cultures were networks of distant points: people of one culture favored lake beaches, people of another culture favored inland pastures, etc. Volosovo, Fatyanovo and yet another cultures were at the same time in the "same" region.

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