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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

  1. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    By sub-Neolithic I meant primarily hunter-gatherers, with maybe some second hand knowledge of agriculture and pastoralism.
    Such labels don't work so well in the north, were even in the Iron Age hunting was still a primary mean of livelihood in large areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    Some users here believe Abashevo, or related groups, may have pioneered into Siberia quite early. I doubt this would have been in the first half of the 3rd millennium BC, however later (<2500BC?) seems possible.
    To my knowledge, all Aryan-related cultural influence in the Siberian steppe only occur closer to 2000 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Populations associated with the early spread of Indo-Aryan have already been found in ancient DNA from Siberia and near the Altai dating to 2,200-1,900 BCE.

    So it's likely that people speaking all sorts of Indo-Iranian languages were present east of the Urals even earlier than this.
    You must mean later than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo
    This means, of course, that Indo-Iranian influences in Proto-Uralic can't be used as a geographic constraint to claim that the Proto-Uralic homeland was in Europe.
    It is not the only anchor. The whole picture is such, that all the anchors together require the Volga-Kama region.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo
    Is there any other reliable evidence/constraint putting the Proto-Uralic homeland in Europe?
    Of course. It is the question of finding the area, where to the west-pulling and to the east-pulling factors meet.
    https://www.sgr.fi/susa/92/hakkinen.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    You must mean later than this.
    No, I do mean earlier.

    Since there are Indo-Aryan-related samples from West Siberia and even near the Altai in ancient DNA dating to >2,000 BCE, then there must have been such people east of the Urals earlier than this.

    We can argue how much earlier exactly, but they were definitely there well before 2,000 BCE, because the aforementioned samples represent settled populations native to these areas, not recent migrants.

    It is not the only anchor. The whole picture is such, that all the anchors together require the Volga-Kama region.
    Can you list these other anchors?

    How many are there exactly are how reliable is each one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Can you list these other anchors?

    How many are there exactly are how reliable is each one?
    I can think of phony PIE contacts, a phantom NWIE language, and a so-called Paleo-European substratum which left agricultural loanwords into Uralic somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I can think of phony PIE contacts, a phantom NWIE language, and a so-called Paleo-European substratum which left agricultural loanwords into Uralic somehow.
    Paleo substrate post dates Proto-Uralic and maybe even Proto-West-Uralic.

    So, it is the first two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I can think of phony PIE contacts, a phantom NWIE language, and a so-called Paleo-European substratum which left agricultural loanwords into Uralic somehow.
    I'm sure you people can try to google with different languages.
    But CopperAxe has already decided, that he isn't going to accept any linguistic results and rather goes with pseudoscience here, predicting language from DNA, so I see no reason to waste my time on lost cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    I'm sure you people can try to google with different languages.
    But CopperAxe has already decided, that he isn't going to accept any linguistic results and rather goes with pseudoscience here, predicting language from DNA, so I see no reason to waste my time on lost cases.
    I won't argue linguistic results with you, but it is becoming increasingly unlikely N-L1026 subclades or Nganasan-like ancestry will be found west of the Urals prior to the Bronze Age. In this case, Proto-Uralic must have been spoken in Volosovo or Garino-Bor, correct? There is currently a single Volosovo sample released, BER001 (ca. 4447–4259 calBC) Q-L54.

    For the relevant N lines, aDNA is pointing to a migration from Trans-Baikal to the Lena river, sometime after 4690-4519 calBCE.

    Trans-Baikal Neolithic brn008 (5511-5374 calBCE) N-L708* + Trans-Baikal Neolithic brn003 (4690-4519 calBCE) N-M2126* (both ancestral to N-L1026).

    Here, the Trans-Baikal population must have split, one branch going farther North, following the Lena,

    Central Yakutia LN N4a1 (2832-2474 calBCE) N-M2126 pre- M2019* (sister branch to N-L1026) + Central Yakutia LN N4b2 (2398-2141 calBCE) N-M2126 pre- L1026.

    The other going West, Krasnoyarsk LN/EBA kra001 (2336-2135 calBCE) N-CTS6967* (pre-L1026) + unreleased Middle Irtysh EBA Seima-Turbino (~2000BC) N-L1026.

    An N-L1026/Nganasan-like population must have infiltrated the Altai/West-Siberian metallurgical province during the LN or EBA. Either constituting one part of the initial Seima-Turbino population (NE Siberian influence Chernykh recognized) or, migrated along the existing Seima-Turbino trade network. Either way, this would have to explain the N-L1026 specific population replacement that occurred in the forest-zones of Europe and West Siberia.

    The main thing of note here, is that this migration seems to have occurred remarkably late, across the entirety of Siberia. Although, the earliest Seima-Turbino sites may reach Europe slightly before 2000BC.

    In this scenario, the PU Volosovo/Garino-Bor population first had to assimilate or avoid migrating Fatyanovo groups, then the N-L1026/Nganasan-like population that replaced all(?) of their male lineages.
    Last edited by Zelto; 04-18-2021 at 07:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I won't argue linguistic results with you, but it is becoming increasingly unlikely N-L1026 subclades or Nganasan-like ancestry will be found west of the Urals prior to the Bronze Age. In this case, Proto-Uralic must have been spoken in Volosovo or Garino-Bor, correct? There is currently a single Volosovo sample released, BER001 (ca. 44474259 calBC) Q-L54.

    For the relevant N lines, aDNA is pointing to a migration from Trans-Baikal to the Lena river, sometime after 4690-4519 calBCE.

    Trans-Baikal Neolithic brn008 (5511-5374 calBCE) N-L708* + Trans-Baikal Neolithic brn003 (4690-4519 calBCE) N-M2126* (both ancestral to N-L1026).

    Here, the Trans-Baikal population must have split, one branch going farther North, following the Lena,

    Central Yakutia LN N4a1 (2832-2474 calBCE) N-M2126 pre- M2019* (sister branch to N-L1026) + Central Yakutia LN N4b2 (2398-2141 calBCE) N-M2126 pre- L1026.

    The other going West, Krasnoyarsk LN/EBA kra001 (2336-2135 calBCE) N-CTS6967* (pre-L1026) + unreleased Middle Irtysh EBA Seima-Turbino (~2000BC) N-L1026.

    An N-L1026/Nganasan-like population must have infiltrated the Altai/West-Siberian metallurgical province during the LN or EBA. Either constituting one part of the initial Seima-Turbino population (NE Siberian influence Chernykh recognized) or, migrated along the existing Seima-Turbino trade network. Either way, this would have to explain the N-L1026 specific population replacement that occurred in the forest-zones of Europe and West Siberia.

    The main thing of note here, is that this migration seems to have occurred remarkably late, across the entirety of Siberia. Although, the earliest Seima-Turbino sites may reach Europe slightly before 2000BC.

    In this scenario, the PU Volosovo/Garino-Bor population first had to assimilate or avoid migrating Fatyanovo groups, then the N-L1026/Nganasan-like population that replaced all(?) of their male lineages.
    Can you send me a reference for this? As far as I remember, archaeologists generally emphasize three streams of influence in the Seima-Turbino phenomenon: the metallurgy (from Altai)/some metal forms (Abashevo- and corded-ware-related), the pottery/ceramics (from Abashevo-related cultures and West Siberian hunter-gatherers) and the bone and stoneworking (from Cisbaikal region/Samuskaya). Where do they talk about the NE Siberian influence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Can you send me a reference for this? As far as I remember, archaeologists generally emphasize three streams of influence in the Seima-Turbino phenomenon: the metallurgy (from Altai)/some metal forms (Abashevo- and corded-ware-related), the pottery/ceramics (from Abashevo-related cultures and West Siberian hunter-gatherers) and the bone and stoneworking (from Cisbaikal region/Samuskaya). Where do they talk about the NE Siberian influence?
    "For the original Seimin-Turbine groups, we envisage the merger of two components of culture. The first of the components was localized in the Altai mountain and foothill region in the ecological environment of steppe and forest steppe spaces. It was represented by metallurgists and horse breeders (probably riders). These classes were leading in their life. It is with this component associated with the most vivid and characteristic features that distinguish the Seimin-Turbine component among other Eurasian communities.

    Another component is connected by us to the East Siberian Taiga zone north of the Sayano-Altai mountain system, in the area between Baikal and Yenisei. Here lived mobile - in comparison, for example, with the West Siberian - groups of hunters and anglers (Oladnikov, 1970, p. 176-179), who were able to make beautiful stone and bone equipment. It is difficult to identify the area where the organic merging of both components occurred, leading to the emergence of a new type of culture.
    "

    E.N. Chernykh, S.V. Kuzminykh (1987) "Monuments of the Seimin-Turbin type in Eurasia"

    Pottery in Seima-Turbino sites seem to have been whatever was locally produced. The main exception being the Chirkovo culture (Seima necropolis) had Krotovo-type pottery (mole-ceramics in Russian).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I won't argue linguistic results with you, but it is becoming increasingly unlikely N-L1026 subclades or Nganasan-like ancestry will be found west of the Urals prior to the Bronze Age.
    There are many subclades of L1026, all spread separately. Some of them could be connected to the some steps of the spread of Uralic languages. When we get more aDNA information, we can build the puzzle piece by piece. Guessing is not worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    In this case, Proto-Uralic must have been spoken in Volosovo or Garino-Bor, correct?
    Proto-Uralic could have been spoken within any culture(s) which matches the linguistic results concerning time and place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    There is currently a single Volosovo sample released, BER001 (ca. 4447–4259 calBC) Q-L54.
    Volosovo area was huge, and different ethno-linguistic groups could have existed within the area. It also overlapped with other cultures, like Fatyanovo. Ancient cultures were not total-coverage things but networks of separated spots.

    Interestingly, the Scandinavian Q-L804 is under Q-L54.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    For the relevant N lines, aDNA is pointing to a migration from Trans-Baikal to the Lena river, sometime after 4690-4519 calBCE.

    Trans-Baikal Neolithic brn008 (5511-5374 calBCE) N-L708* + Trans-Baikal Neolithic brn003 (4690-4519 calBCE) N-M2126* (both ancestral to N-L1026).

    Here, the Trans-Baikal population must have split, one branch going farther North, following the Lena,

    Central Yakutia LN N4a1 (2832-2474 calBCE) N-M2126 pre- M2019* (sister branch to N-L1026) + Central Yakutia LN N4b2 (2398-2141 calBCE) N-M2126 pre- L1026.

    The other going West, Krasnoyarsk LN/EBA kra001 (2336-2135 calBCE) N-CTS6967* (pre-L1026) + unreleased Middle Irtysh EBA Seima-Turbino (~2000BC) N-L1026.

    An N-L1026/Nganasan-like population must have infiltrated the Altai/West-Siberian metallurgical province during the LN or EBA. Either constituting one part of the initial Seima-Turbino population (NE Siberian influence Chernykh recognized) or, migrated along the existing Seima-Turbino trade network. Either way, this would have to explain the N-L1026 specific population replacement that occurred in the forest-zones of Europe and West Siberia.
    Sounds possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    The main thing of note here, is that this migration seems to have occurred remarkably late, across the entirety of Siberia. Although, the earliest Seima-Turbino sites may reach Europe slightly before 2000BC.

    In this scenario, the PU Volosovo/Garino-Bor population first had to assimilate or avoid migrating Fatyanovo groups, then the N-L1026/Nganasan-like population that replaced all(?) of their male lineages.
    There were several waves of L1026, and very possibly their autosomal compositions differed, too. There were also a multitude of Palaeo-Siberian languages, so there really are much more options for these west-heading migrations, not only Proto-Uralic. If one only looks at the modern language families, he goes miserably wrong.

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