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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    As for Z1934, yes, this subclades has not yet been found in ancient DNA, and its modern distribution occurs not even in the Volga region, but in the central part of European Russia (Tula, Tambov, Ryazan, Moscow, Tver, Voronezh).
    Indeed and because of this I think that there's a fair chance that it was born west of Ural mountains, not east of it.

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  3. #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    A few years ago Estonian researchers released some information about ancient people who were genetically intermediate between ancient Estonians and Mordovians once living somewhere near southeastern Estonia and those samples were never published. Maybe some connection? I'm 90% sure they lived somewhere around Pskov.
    Siksälä burial, here:

    https://yandex.eu/maps/179/estonia/g...602376&z=14.39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Siksala and Koikula were part of Medieval pre-Livonian Order Adzele land (German Adzel, Russian Ochela) together with several NE Latvia lands, including where my maternal ancestors come from.

    Edit:
    Apparently Latvian sources write that Atzele was likely populated by FU population that was not similar to Southern Estonians, they had material culture like Latgalian but orientation of burials differed. Earlier some non-Estonian FU burials are known also near Viļaka, similar to Siksala and Novgorod burials. Text unfortunately in Latvian.
    https://atzele.wordpress.com/kas-ir-atzele/
    Last edited by parastais; 04-22-2021 at 06:37 PM.

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  7. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Target: Parastais_scaled
    Distance: 1.4781% / 0.01478090 | R3P
    59.6 Latvian_latvian58C6
    22.6 Latvian_latvian54A2
    17.8 Moksha_MOE-445

    I got the Mokshas by splitting Mordovians by their ID info. Unfortunately you get a lot of noise in a lot of models, but you can be modeled as a Latvian-Lithuanian with Moksha and Baltic_EST_IA, but not with modern day Estonians. A few years ago Estonian researchers released some information about ancient people who were genetically intermediate between ancient Estonians and Mordovians once living somewhere near southeastern Estonia and those samples were never published. Maybe some connection? I'm 90% sure they lived somewhere around Pskov.

    Target: Parastais_scaled
    Distance: 1.3449% / 0.01344911 | R5P
    33.0 Lithuanian_SZ_LTG-1123
    27.0 Latvian_latvian58C6
    19.2 Lithuanian_RA_LTG-102
    10.4 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1
    9.6 Mordovian_MOE-445
    0.8 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V12_1

    In terms of Siberian, you appear to have some.

    Target: Parastais_scaled
    Distance: 1.9279% / 0.01927861
    80.4 Latvian
    18.6 Lithuanian_VZ
    1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    Do you have a link? If such people (intermediate between Estonian-Moksha) existed, it would fit in very, very nicely with a population a little more Kra001 than Estonians who had some descent from the proto-Finns en route to Estonia. Furthermore it would confirm a decline in kra001 ancestry among populations of the area (Southeastermost Estonia and Northern Latvia) from that time to the modern period with increasing influence of Baltic speakers.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 04-22-2021 at 06:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Usually, yes. Still, weaker influences can also be connected to the spread of new language, because it is foremost a socio-linguistic matter. And we cannot reach the socio-linguistic reality either from archaeological or genetic data.

    Weaker influence in the right place at the right time is far better match than a mass migration in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    Yet some people unscientifically want to believe, that they can ignore all the linguistic results and just claim that some random migration was connected to the spread of Uralic language. Think about that!
    There was no mass migration, archeologists stress that the entire Seima-Turbino phenomenon consisted of relatively few individuals. Also, I don't think Seima-Turbino is at the wrong place, or wrong time to be connected with Proto-Uralic. Even if Late Proto-Uralic broke up west of the Urals, why couldn't S-T have brought Pre-Proto/Early Proto-Uralic to Turbino?

    You can't claim it was some "random migration" either, as you yourself have connected it, at least partially, to the spread of Proto-Uralic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    At least we know for certain, that the Fatyanovo language did not win there - and yet you claim that the Fatyanovo influence was strongest! Now you see, how poor predictive power your method has.
    Because the post-Fatyanovo language was replaced by Uralics, spread by Seima-Turbino. There are far more necropli located in the related Fatyanovo-Balanovo/Abashevo culture, than the single Turbino site in Garino-Bor. Abashevo influences begin all the way in West Siberia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Seima and Turbino were the greatest European-side centres in the Seima-Turbino network - thus the name. It means, that there has inevitably been contacts between these centres. Who ever got the socio-linguistic upper hand in that contact network, could have spread their language wider.
    That's not true, they were just some of the fist sites discovered; Seima is also located in the previously Fatyanovo area. There are also the Reshnoe, Yurino, Kaninskaya cave and Satyga necropoli west of the Urals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Seima-Turbino did not spread Uralic widely - only the first step. Uralic language did not spread further west from Upper Volga, even though there are Seima-Turbino items all over Finland and even Sweden. So, the network only had power to spread the original Kama language (PU) inside the most intensive area of the network.
    I agree, Seima-Turbino necropli don't reach farther west than the Upper Volga. Items found in Fennoscandia probably only reflect trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Besides, S-T network could have been multilingual from the beginning: there are proposals that the Aryans were in it, too. All the more reasons for PU to spread, when there were so diverse language situation within the network. After all, the PU speakers had ready established contacts with their neighbours.
    How does Seima-Turbino being linguistically diverse, make it any more likely PU was spread from Garino-Bor? If anything that would make it harder to effect language change across the network. S-T groups also had preestablished contact with the neighboring cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    There are plenty of different models, how a language can spread. Elite dominance is but one of many possibilities.

    Prestige is certainly connected to the traders of valuable bronze artifacts. For example, the Late Proto-Aryan loanwords in Uralic include 'value', '100', '1000', 'prince/chief'. Huge riches were collected within this network by its chief operators, giving them an ultimate prestige.
    Seima-Turbino was spread via elite dominance, that is pretty well accepted. There was no mass migration, only a small number of traders and bronze smiths, who formed an elite within native cultures.

    Unless the local Garino-Bor population held a higher social position than the migrating Seima-Turbino group (+Fatyanovo-Balanovo/Abashevo), there is no reason to assume they would adopt AND spread their language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    The northern route hypothesis itself is not new. Previously, it was called the northern migration of Fino-Ugric tribes and in Europe it ended with the formation of the culture of pit-comb ceramics. It has now been transformed into the northern migration route of haplogroup N. In Russia, even some geneticists, such as Volkov, promote this theory. But he calls the exit point Baraba and then the northern Urals and the Baltic Sea. The route directly from Yakutia to the Kola Peninsula on the tundra is very doubtful. 10 months of the year are winter, with winter temperatures averaging -50 Celsius. Anything is possible, but this is a very unrealistic scenario. I think that the Yamykhyak culture is M2019. If some basal lines of L1026* are found there, it only suggests that their common ancestor M2126 from Lake Baikal did not immediately go to the Yenisei, but first down the Lena River, and from there L1026 went to the Yenisei, where kra001 was found.
    I don't think the relevant N-L1026 subclades (Z1936; Y6058) spread via the Arctic route. Evidenced by the fact that Siberian ancestry in kra001, is closer to that in modern Uralic speakers, than the Ymyyakhtakh samples.

    However, if the FtDNA calls are correct, existing, or extinct subclades of N-L1026* may have been present from Northern Altai to Yakutia during the late Neolithic. This would also stress the relatedness between the Ymyyakhtakh culture and the kra001-like Siberians who took part in Seima-Turbino.

    They were highly mobile and militaristic judging by the presence of bone shields, armor and weapons in their burials. Their ability to spread would have become even greater after receiving metallurgy and horses from the populations in the Altai-Sayan region.

    You can read about the exact burials of the Ymyyakhtakh samples analyzed in Kilinc et al. here.

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  13. #1207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I don't think the relevant N-L1026 subclades (Z1936; Y6058) spread via the Arctic route. Evidenced by the fact that Siberian ancestry in kra001, is closer to that in modern Uralic speakers, than the Ymyyakhtakh samples.

    However, if the FtDNA calls are correct, existing, or extinct subclades of N-L1026* may have been present from Northern Altai to Yakutia during the late Neolithic. This would also stress the relatedness between the Ymyyakhtakh culture and the kra001-like Siberians who took part in Seima-Turbino.

    They were highly mobile and militaristic judging by the presence of bone shields, armor and weapons in their burials. Their ability to spread would have become even greater after receiving metallurgy and horses from the populations in the Altai-Sayan region.

    You can read about the exact burials of the Ymyyakhtakh samples analyzed in Kilinc et al. here.
    Arctic expansion doesnt seem likely but something along the latitude of the central Ob river kind of makes sense. Rapid expansion westwards along those latitudes and then separate, gradual migrations southwards, absorbing local ancestries in the process seems to fit pretty well with the distribution of East Siberian ancestry and N-L1026 lineages amongst Uralic peoples.

    Potential point of origin? I think the regions north and west of the Angara river bend make sense, considering it is directly linked to the Yenisei river.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 04-22-2021 at 07:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Do you have a link? If such people (intermediate between Estonian-Moksha) existed, it would fit in very, very nicely with a population a little more Kra001 than Estonians who had some descent from the proto-Finns en route to Estonia. Furthermore it would confirm a decline in kra001 ancestry among populations of the area (Southeastermost Estonia and Northern Latvia) from that time to the modern period with increasing influence of Baltic speakers.
    I had to dig through the entire Finnish forum to find it. It concerns a people known as the Otšela chudes. Oddly enough one member(Shaikorth) labeled them a group of criminals! Strange forum.
    https://kultuur.postimees.ee/4455107...st-otsad-kokku
    "Recent studies based on old DNA by the Estonian Biocentre also suggest that the rural population of Adaste was different from the Estonians. Therefore, the burials buried in the grave differ significantly from the medieval rural Estonians based on genetic data - located between them and modern Mordvins, pointing to the east."

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  17. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    I had to dig through the entire Finnish forum to find it. It concerns a people known as the Otšela chudes. Oddly enough one member(Shaikorth) labeled them a group of criminals! Strange forum.
    https://kultuur.postimees.ee/4455107...st-otsad-kokku
    "Recent studies based on old DNA by the Estonian Biocentre also suggest that the rural population of Adaste was different from the Estonians. Therefore, the burials buried in the grave differ significantly from the medieval rural Estonians based on genetic data - located between them and modern Mordvins, pointing to the east."
    Otšela = Atzele = Očela.
    One of historical lands under Latgalian Tālava. Basically where my maternal ancestors are from. Funny stuff - one day I am discussing Eastern and Western Chudes, next day I find out I am 15%-ish descendant of Atzele Chudes

    Perhaps need to get my mother tested too, if I can be modelled as 16% Mordvin she should go for 30%...

    In general would be cool to test Balvi, Alūksne regions.

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  19. #1210
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Arctic expansion doesnt seem likely but something along the latitude of the central Ob river kind of makes sense. Rapid expansion westwards along those latitudes and then separate, gradual migrations southwards, absorbing local ancestries in the process seems to fit pretty well with the distribution of East Siberian ancestry and N-L1026 lineages amongst Uralic peoples.

    Potential point of origin? I think the regions north and west of the Angara river makes sense, considering it is directly linked to the Yenisei river.

    Really no evidence for this. Much of the latitudes of the central Ob (deep into the Taiga) are clearly covered by Uralic spread zones fairly recently in the historic and protohistoric periods (e.g. Samoyed and Khanty who occupy the Middle Ob now clearly did so later, they have substrate vocabulary from the region, proto-Samoyed and proto-Khanty were definitely not spoken on the Middle Ob). Basically every branch of Uralic sent off its northern offshoots only during the Iron Age to Medieval periods. The homeland of every single branch of the Uralic family is along the boundary of the Taiga with the steppe zone, and their expansions were from south to north.

    After the Abashevo period, the forest steppe previously occupied by people with Corded Ware-like genetics was covered by a number of cultures with local pottery traditions but with elite culture from the East (e.g. the various stages of the Prikazan culture). These cultures are likely to have been Uralic-speaking and the earliest ones West of the Urals. You've got to understand that, excepting Samoyeds, there is a massive predominance of West Eurasian mtDNA (>70%) in all Uralic speakers, even as far East as the Khanty and Mansi near the Arctic zone on the Middle and Lower Ob valley East of the Urals. How did that get there?

    Linguistic evidence for this fairly extensively reviewed in Saarikivi:

    Several Proto-Permic word stems give an idea about the ecological zone where
    Proto-Permic was spoken. Belykh (1999) points out the words related to oak (Querqus, Ud
    тыпы tɨpɨ, Komi-Permyak тыпу tɨpu), hazel (Corylus, пашпу pɑʃpu), lime tree (Tilia,
    нинпу ɲinpu), elm (Ulmus, сирпу ɕirpu), Siberian pine (сыспу sɨspu), bee (muʃ, moʃ),
    snake (кый kɨj), etc. Especially the oak, hazel and Siberian pine have a fairly limited
    southern zone of joint occurrence in the Eastern Europe, in Kama basin.
    See also his section on horse vocabulary in Khanty and Mansi.
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