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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Edit: An interesting thing here that deserves mention is that there are only about 20 NWIE/archaic IE items with Baltic Finnish distribution, of which he claims many are problematic. It would be nice if Kummel and him could work together through the remaining ones with Laryngeals as well, going through the entire layer with Kummel's new reconstruction of Laryngeals in IIr.
    The number of words in the oldest layers is always low.
    And as Holopainen says, some of them are still valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    It contradicts for example the Pre-Proto-Aryan loanword layer: nobody has presented any reliable argument that this language was ever spoken in Siberia.
    There are Steppe_MLBA/R1a samples from Rostovka that may have spoken PIIr. At the very least, you could leave this option open.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    All I said is, that even if the European part of the S-T network was connected to the spread of PU, it does not mean, that other parts of the S-T network were also connected to the spread of PrePU.
    Then I agree with you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    How is this relevant?
    You were assuming Garino-Bor spoke Proto-Uralic and thus Fatyanovo had no influence. If you discard that assumption, the Seima site is located within the post-Fatyanovo area, there is no reason it would have had less influence than Garino-Bor on Uralic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    See the maps of the S-T findings: Seima and Turbino were the greatest centres in Europe.
    I have seen plenty of maps.

    1. The Seima site is nowhere near Garino-Bor.
    2. West of the Urals, Seima-Turbino finds are most dense just north of Abashevo. In former Fatyanovo-Balanovo territories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    S-T was a newcomer in Europe, so they relied on the local network - they didn't have their own yet. The Kama people were the first they met in the European side, and therefore they had a chance to become important within that network.
    Abashevo-like populations were involved with Seima-Turbino in West Siberia. The most direct route from Rostovka, to the west, would be through the southern Urals, just north of the Abashevo area, where S-T finds are most prevalent. Again, not through Garino-Bor which, was farther North.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    I mean that "no mass migration" does not mean, that elite dominance is the only option.
    Still, the socio-linguistic factors, prestige etc. probably had contained "elite" features, too.

    It is not probable that locals just let few foreign traders to hustle there, without setting any terms and deals. Especially, because there was no "tribal movement" involved = no fear of violent reaction. So, the network could only spread and grow, if they gave something to the locals.

    So the "higher position" is relative:
    Siberian S-T originals > Kama/Turbino S-T posse > more western periphery.
    We know migrants from the East were involved (spread of N-L1026/kra001-like ancestry) and that they probably replaced most of whatever local ancestry was in Garino-Bor.

    That to me, does not sound like Garino-Bor was in a high social position, compared to the Eastern newcomers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I think there is a more pressing dilemma at hand actually, and that is that Pre-Proto-Uralic seemingly has connections to East Siberian languages. Very eastern ones, like Yukhagir. Maybe not directly related, but contact perhaps. This is something you tentatively support right?
    Yes. Ancient past of Proto-Uralic is widely seen to have existed in Siberia.
    But not that eastern: Pre-Proto-Yukaghir could have spread to the northeast via Lena from the Baikal region, just like Yakut did later. So the contact zone with Pre-Proto-Uralic probably was close to the Altai-Sayan region, just like with the Altaic families.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    If so, you have to look for a genetic signal that is Transbaikalish at the least, or you are going to have to convince me that Yukhagir was a West-Siberian hunter gatherer language.

    And this genetic signal has to be present in somewhat of a sizeable population, and neither genetics or archaeology seems to be in favour of such an event occurring. Like if we are really stretching it you could have a 2300-2000 bc westwards and we just havent been able to differentiate their sites from others. But accepting this would mean that several of the factors which tie Proto-Uralic to Europe such as Pre-Indo-Iranian, Archaic IE, NWIE etc. are not applicable. Then Archaic IE and Pre-Indo-Iranian points of contact have to be relocated to Siberia for example. But if we can do that in that case, we can also do that if there is no signal present in Europe inbetween 2300 and 2000 bc.
    You can't force the linguistic results on the basis of genetic results: they are independent.
    The loanword layers and the western trees pull Late Proto-Uralic to the European side sometimes during the 3rd millennium BC. Sooner or later a genetic match can be found.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    Why couldn't you have a scenario where early Finnic peoples migrated from north to south, and then only got replaced/assimilated by Baltic people coming in during the LBA?
    There is a continuum of loanword layers into Finnic: Proto-Balto-Slavic > Proto-Baltic > East Baltic > dialectal Baltic. Southern route through the Baltic areas fits this best.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    I haven't been banned or suspended yet. Squeaky clean
    Oh, then I must learn from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    Out of the numerous amount of samples we had adjacent to the Sayan region I haven't come across any which had a particular affinity to Samoyeds or a fitting Samoyedic source parent for example. I get that we probably dont have any samples from relevant regions and that their populations would've been small, but still the lack of the signal so far is strange.

    There is one outlier from the Andronovo samples at Krasnoyarsk which has 25% Kra001-like ancestry, 25% WSHG like (probably from west of the Altai) and 50% steppe mlba, but it predates the supposed presence of Samoyedic peoples in the region. Also had a Q lineage.

    But none of the Karasuk samples including outliers show strong signs of it, nor any of the following eastern Scytho-Siberian samples like Tagar, Pazyryk, Sagly etc.
    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    For example the proposed homeland of the Yeniseian language seems to correlate pretty well with the populations in the region around the LBA/EIA. The only difference is that Kra001-like ancestry so far hasnt show itself in considerable amounts amongst any of the LBA/EIA samples around the Sayan region and the Ket do have a lot of that. But aside from that you have populations on the WSHG-ESHG cline, steppe_mlba and we even see mixed populations with predominantly Siberian lineages on their paternal sides but still a lot of steppe_mlba ancestry.

    By the way I think Yeniseian is argued to be a bit older than Proto-Yeniseian around 1 AD. The hints of Yeniseian languages we find in Xiongnu and Ji related textual attestations seem to point towards Southern Yeniseian languages specifically, indicating that this split already must've occurred before that date.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    What are the arguments for Pre-Proto-Samoyedic being placed in the Altai-Sayan from around 1500 bc to 500 bc-ish (?) on linguistic grounds anyways? Couldn't they have arrived to the Altai-Sayan from a more northern region after 500 bc?
    This could be possible, if the Pre-Proto-Samoyedic loanwords in Pre-Proto-Yukaghir were adopted in the north. But there is no similar west-east river route in the north as Lena is in the south. And it would be difficult to explain the known Yeniseian and Samoyedic languages, if Samoyedic was first in the north.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe
    Oh, and considering there is no genetically traceable signal of this bronze age migration yet, is there an archaeological trail of such movements?
    I haven't checked, so I'm not sure. Probably Russians have some proposals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post

    Out of the numerous amount of samples we had adjacent to the Sayan region I haven't come across any which had a particular affinity to Samoyeds or a fitting Samoyedic source parent for example. I get that we probably dont have any samples from relevant regions and that their populations would've been small, but still the lack of the signal so far is strange.

    There is one outlier from the Andronovo samples at Krasnoyarsk which has 25% Kra001-like ancestry, 25% WSHG like (probably from west of the Altai) and 50% steppe mlba, but it predates the supposed presence of Samoyedic peoples in the region. Also had a Q lineage.

    But none of the Karasuk samples including outliers show strong signs of it, nor any of the following eastern Scytho-Siberian samples like Tagar, Pazyryk, Sagly etc.

    For example the proposed homeland of the Yeniseian language seems to correlate pretty well with the populations in the region around the LBA/EIA. The only difference is that Kra001-like ancestry so far hasnt show itself in considerable amounts amongst any of the LBA/EIA samples around the Sayan region and the Ket do have a lot of that. But aside from that you have populations on the WSHG-ESHG cline, steppe_mlba and we even see mixed populations with predominantly Siberian lineages on their paternal sides but still a lot of steppe_mlba ancestry.

    By the way I think Yeniseian is argued to be a bit older than Proto-Yeniseian around 1 AD. The hints of Yeniseian languages we find in Xiongnu and Ji related textual attestations seem to point towards Southern Yeniseian languages specifically, indicating that this split already must've occurred before that date.

    What are the arguments for Pre-Proto-Samoyedic being placed in the Altai-Sayan from around 1500 bc to 500 bc-ish (?) on linguistic grounds anyways? Couldn't they have arrived to the Altai-Sayan from a more northern region after 500 bc?

    Oh, and considering there is no genetically traceable signal of this bronze age migration yet, is there an archaeological trail of such movements?
    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post

    Khanty don't live all that far away from where the iron age Kulai culture was, which is associated with Ugric peoples like the Sargat culture. Just more northern along the Ob. Given that Kulai was northeast of the Sargat you'd expect quite a jump in Kra001-like ancestry because the Sargat culture was proximate to Scythian groups, whereas the Kulai culture was a bit further away.

    The Khanty have about the double of Kra001-like ancestry than the Sargat. If the Sargat had significant ancestry from steppe groups after 1000 bc, this would imply that their bronze age source population was probably closer to modern Ugric peoples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    I haven't checked, so I'm not sure. Probably Russians have some proposals.
    Hemlinksy connects the Kulay culture to the Samoyeds. If you look at the distribution of Kulay culture artefacts (which reach all the way to the Yenisei and the forest-steppe north of the Sayan and even the Angara river region), it does not form a match with the spread zone of any of the Ugric languages but a close one with the Samoyed languages. On the other hand Iron Age cultures like Gamayun and Itkul near the Urals are good candidates for the populations ancestral to Ugric language speakers.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I think there is a more pressing dilemma at hand actually, and that is that Pre-Proto-Uralic seemingly has connections to East Siberian languages. Very eastern ones, like Yukhagir.
    Translated from Russian Wikipedia (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Юкагиры):

    In antiquity (VII thousand years BC. [source not specified 614 days]) Yukaghirs lived in the east of the Yenisei and in the Sayan Mountains, where they formed a unity with the speakers of the Uralic languages Finno-Ugrians, Samoyedians). A.P. Okladnikov came to the conclusion that the Neolithic culture of Yakutia belonged to the ancestors of the Yukagirs. This point of view was adhered to by such well-known Soviet researchers as MG Levin, IS Gurvich, Yu. B. Simchenko [8].

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Out of the numerous amount of samples we had adjacent to the Sayan region I haven't come across any which had a particular affinity to Samoyeds or a fitting Samoyedic source parent for example. I get that we probably dont have any samples from relevant regions and that their populations would've been small, but still the lack of the signal so far is strange.
    There aren't samples from the Kulai culture AFAIK, but Helimski connected Samoyedic with Kulai. However Sargat was contemporaneous with Kulai, and the new Sargat samples on G25 have affinity with Nganasan/kra001.



    The graph below consists of the output of Vahaduo's MULTI tab visualized with R. I ran the model for all 984 populations in the datasheet for ancient population averages, but I only included populations with 1% or more kra001 ancestry in the graph below. Sargat is at around the middle of the list.



    I ran the model below for all population averages from the new paper titled "Ancient genomic time transect from the Central Asian Steppe unravels the history of the Scythians". Sargat was the only population that received BOO ancestry:



    The map below shows the coordinates of populations in 1240K+HO, plus kra001 added by me. There isn't any ancient population from the Eastern Sayans, but Tofalars who live in the Eastern Sayans today have high affinity for kra001. There are no samples from the region of the Kulai culture around river Ob, but some of the northernmost samples like Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001 and Russia_MLBA_Krasnoyarsk_o:I6717 have affinity with Uralics.



    The map below is from a book which connected the Kulai culture with Samoyedic: http://vital.lib.tsu.ru/vital/access...vtls:000219334. On Jaska's forum, someone said that the book contained pseudoscientific theories about Ob-Ugrics migrating to America, so maybe take it with a grain of salt. Anyway I included the map because it shows how the Kulai culture was north of the area where Kamasins lived, and there isn't that much ancient DNA north of kra001, which is within the territory of Kamasins.

    Kamasins lived in southern Krasnoyarsk Krai along the rivers Kan and Mana, which are right tributaries of Yenisei. The city of Krasnoyarsk is along Yenisei between the forks of Kan and Mana. The site of kra001 is along river Kan near the city of Kansk. The source of the Kan and Mana rivers is in the Eastern Sayans where Tofalars live today.



    Edit: I should've read the replies that were posted after the post I was quoting:

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The iron age Sargat samples show about 20% Kra001 like ancestry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    But not that eastern: Pre-Proto-Yukaghir could have spread to the northeast via Lena from the Baikal region, just like Yakut did later. So the contact zone with Pre-Proto-Uralic probably was close to the Altai-Sayan region, just like with the Altaic families.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Hemlinksy connects the Kulay culture to the Samoyeds.
    Last edited by Nganasankhan; 04-23-2021 at 01:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Here is a presentation given by Sampsa Holopainen in 2017, about archaic IE and NWIE loanwords in Western Uralic and Baltic Finnish.
    https://www.academia.edu/37668508/Va...alaislainoista

    It reads very well in Google document translate. A few mistranslations:
    ieur = indo-european; kanta- (e.g. kantauralin, kantaarja) = proto-
    Birch Bark/Birch Leaves = Koivulehto
    Rock = Kallio

    Very interesting presentation! His conclusions:

    Edit: An interesting thing here that deserves mention is that there are only about 20 NWIE/archaic IE items with Baltic Finnish distribution, of which he claims many are problematic. It would be nice if Kummel and him could work together through the remaining ones with Laryngeals as well, going through the entire layer with Kummel's new reconstruction of Laryngeals in IIr.
    How do you explain these:

    Proto-Uralic wete* 'water'
    Hittite waatar
    Tocharian A wr, B war
    Ancient Greek hdōr
    Irish en
    Gaulish anam
    Albanian uj
    Latin unda
    Old Indian udn
    Lithuanian vandu,
    Latvian ūdens
    Prussian wundan
    Proto-Slavic *vod,
    Gothic watō‎, MHG waʒʒar

    Proto-Uralic *nime 'name'
    Tocharian A om, B em
    Latin nōmen
    Old Indian nā́man
    Avestan nman
    Gothic namō
    OHG namo
    irish ainm
    Armenian anun
    Ancient Greek ónoma
    Albanian emr
    Prussian ēmens
    Proto-Slavic *jь̄́mę̄

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    This is also interesting. How does Holopainen explain this:
    Proto-Uralic *puna spin, plait (http://uralonet.nytud.hu/eintrag.cgi...2&locale=hu_HU)
    punoa (Fi), punuda (Est), batnit (SamN), ponams (Erz), punš (Mari), pon (Mansi), punttǝda (S)/ pōnellta (KhanE), fon (Hu), pun(iśk)ɨnɨ (Udm), pɨnnɨ (Komi), hon- (Ngan), pangu (Slk), paŋkāl-, panor- (Nen)

    *(s)penh₁- (spin thread, plait, weave, sew; stretch)
    spinnen (OHG spin)
    pìnti (Lith), pīt (Latv twine, plait)
    pnos (Greek web)
    henum (հենում) (Old Armenian weave, sew together)
    pjatʹ (Russ), p'jsty (Ukr), pǎ́na (Bulg stretch), piąć (Pol climb), pnącze (Pol vine), pjatn (Russ spot; blot, stain), *pę̄́tī, *pь̀nǭ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    I haven't checked, so I'm not sure. Probably Russians have some proposals.
    https://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust264/sust264_parpola.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Hemlinksy connects the Kulay culture to the Samoyeds. If you look at the distribution of Kulay culture artefacts (which reach all the way to the Yenisei and the forest-steppe north of the Sayan and even the Angara river region), it does not form a match with the spread zone of any of the Ugric languages but a close one with the Samoyed languages. On the other hand Iron Age cultures like Gamayun and Itkul near the Urals are good candidates for the populations ancestral to Ugric language speakers.
    But if you look at the main distribution of sites, it's around the Ob river, west of Tomsk. Artefacts can reach far and wide with trade, settlements and burial sites are a different topic.

    If you look at the dating, the material culture is there from the 5h century B.C until the 5h century AD, which to my understanding is also the general date Khantys are argued to have began their migration northwards, along the Ob river. The people of the Kulai culture were breeding cattle and hores in that period too.

    How does this fit Samoyedic people at all? By then they not only had to be way further eastwards in the Sayan mountains, the people also had to be hunter-gatherers still, and the Kulai seemed to be semi-pastoral at the least. Not to mention, the linguistic contacts which put Proto-Samoyedic in a contact zone with Proto-Turkic speakers.

    If Sargat are connected to Magyars, then the Kulai should be connected to other Ugric peoples. Right place, right time.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 04-23-2021 at 07:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    By then they not only had to be way further eastwards in the Sayan mountains, the people also had to be hunter-gatherers still, and the Kulai seemed to be semi-pastoral at the least.
    If Proto Uralic speakers were aware of the idea of herding, why wouldn't Samoyedic speakers then? Paradoxically both southern and northern latitudes are BTW more suitable for herding, because of the problems related to feeding and shelters needed during winter. Going north, cows etc. will become a challenge until there are reindeers available. So, there's a kind of a gap in between, suitable for gathering, fishing and hunting, which might have affected for instance vocabulary.

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