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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

  1. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Possibly P43, it separates 6500 BC, which perfectly matches the beginning of the Baraba Neolithic. But, taking into account the fact that all these three groups speak the Uralic language, they obviously re-united somewhere because N1a1 and N1a2 broke up more than 15,000 BC, which excludes the possibility of preserving their common language since the collapse.
    Try to remember: these three groups speak many languages, not only Uralic. OK?
    You plainly stating that they "speak Uralic" is distorting of the facts.

  2. #942
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    @Jaska,
    Is it (at least theoretically) possible that agricultural loanwords layer was mediated via post-Indo-Iranian groups?
    The many š in those kinda point towards language that went through satemization.
    Kinda
    Western Uralic <- extinct late II dialect <- East GAC?

    Was there also an II language layer contemporary to agri substrate with similar irregularities in phonetics and distribution?

    Edit:
    what if we apply retro phonetic change from late II to PIE for those words? Could we by any chance reach words that are known in i.e. Germanic substrate? Would be huge.
    Last edited by parastais; 04-16-2021 at 07:27 AM.

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  4. #943
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    @Jaska,
    Is it (at least theoretically) possible that agricultural loanwords layer was mediated via post-Indo-Iranian groups?
    The many š in those kinda point towards language that went through satemization.
    Kinda
    Western Uralic <- extinct late II dialect <- East GAC?
    This is a possibility, too.
    Typical for that Palaeo-European language in Western-Central Russia and Fenno-Baltia seems to be high frequency of *š, more free combination of nasal consonants and nasal geminates, and also heavy three-consonant clusters. So far nothing similar has come to my eyes from the substrate languages under the IE languages.

    There are also words like Fi. jnis/jnes 'hare', ilves 'lynx' and varis/vares 'crow', where the s-ending looks suspiciously "Indo-European". But so far nobody has found any IE etymologies for these words. The last two are found also in Saami: *lps < WU *ilpis > Fi. ilves | *vuorc'c'ee < WU *varc'c'a ~ *varic' > Fi. varis : variksen (sg.gen).

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais
    Was there also an II language layer contemporary to agri substrate with similar irregularities in phonetics and distribution?
    I'm just checking that out, so: good point!

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais
    Edit:
    what if we apply retro phonetic change from late II to PIE for those words? Could we by any chance reach words that are known in i.e. Germanic substrate? Would be huge.
    So far no matches, but I'm sure linguists keep their eyes open.

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  6. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    varis/vares 'crow'
    Latvian vārna - crow.
    Wiktionary: From an earlier *varna (where the intonation later caused lengthening: ar̄ > āːr), from Proto-Baltic *war- with an extra -nā, from Proto-Indo-European *war-, *wer- (“to burn; to be black”). A parallel masculine counterpart must have existed, from Proto-Baltic *war-no-, *war-nyo-; cf. Lithuanian var̃nas, Old Prussian warnis, Russian во́рон (vron) (< Proto-Slavic *vronъ). In Latvian, a masculine form vārnis is attested only in folk tales. Cognates include Lithuanian vrna, Old Prussian warne, Proto-Slavic *vorna (Old Church Slavonic врана (vrana), Russian, Ukrainian воро́на (vorna), Belarusian варо́на (varna), Bulgarian вра́на (vrna), Czech vrna, Polish wrona), Tocharian B wraua.[1]
    Last edited by parastais; 04-16-2021 at 11:49 AM.

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  8. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    There are also words like Fi. jnis/jnes 'hare', ilves 'lynx' and varis/vares 'crow', where the s-ending looks suspiciously "Indo-European". But so far nobody has found any IE etymologies for these words. The last two are found also in Saami: *lps < WU *ilpis > Fi. ilves | *vuorc'c'ee < WU *varc'c'a ~ *varic' > Fi. varis : variksen (sg.gen).
    Ι know your approach is scientific (mine is not that much). I don't have the knowledge to take into account most relavant sound laws etc. Proto-Celtic has *kasnī. If that language had some short of consonant mutation e.g. k > γ (>j, is that too much??, palatalization could have been affected by the quality of the vowel?) and the s of the cluster was lost in Fi.? Concerning crows it may have something to do with the root *gʷerh₃-. In Modern Greek that 'labiovelar' has shifted to v, and for example we have the word vora (food, meat, properly of carnivorous beasts). But early Italic languages already had v from *gʷ (so that could have been the case with other possible lost IE languages / dialects)
    Personally, I don't even really believe PIE had 'labiovelars', but I have given myself enough creative freedom.

    Concerning ilpes, see the IE (and Uralic) words for wolves and foxes. I have the impression that in some branches one could have been influencing another and if someone believes in Nostratic and / or Eurasiatic it is worth checking if they are ultimately related (if we go enough back in time). If it is a loan from an IE language a semantic shift fox > lynx is also possible imho, Italic wolpis seems at least superficially similar.

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  10. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Latvian vārna - crow.
    Wiktionary: From an earlier *varna (where the intonation later caused lengthening: ar̄ > āːr), from Proto-Baltic *war- with an extra -nā, from Proto-Indo-European *war-, *wer- (“to burn; to be black”). A parallel masculine counterpart must have existed, from Proto-Baltic *war-no-, *war-nyo-; cf. Lithuanian var̃nas, Old Prussian warnis, Russian во́рон (vron) (< Proto-Slavic *vronъ). In Latvian, a masculine form vārnis is attested only in folk tales. Cognates include Lithuanian vrna, Old Prussian warne, Proto-Slavic *vorna (Old Church Slavonic врана (vrana), Russian, Ukrainian воро́на (vorna), Belarusian варо́на (varna), Bulgarian вра́на (vrna), Czech vrna, Polish wrona), Tocharian B wraua.[1]
    Interesting. Many bird names are onomatopoetic, so quite similar sounds appear around the world.

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    Jaska,

    Earlier there was a discussion on the etymology of *wśk and whether it was present in Proto-Uralic or a Wanderwort. As well as the implications of the compound *sV-wśka. The article I quoted of yours is almost a decade old, I was wondering if your views on this subject has changed at all?

    If not, would I be correct to say Proto-Uralic looks like a language spoken by a sub-Neolithic population, with knowledge of bronze?

    You also mentioned Aryans acting on Pre- and Late Proto-Uralic. Would you accept the possibility that PIIr and Pre-Proto-Uralic had contact in Siberia?

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  13. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    Jaska,

    Earlier there was a discussion on the etymology of *wśk and whether it was present in Proto-Uralic or a Wanderwort. As well as the implications of the compound *sV-wśka.
    Some cognates of *wśk seem irregular, but that doesn't mean that all of them are secondary. There is still a solid basis, even though in some languages the word has a secondary origin. Just like the borrowing of the same word later does not make the earlier borrowing false (this happened with some Aryan loanwords).

    And *sV-wśka has two sibilants, regularly changed in the eastern branches, so Permic and Mansi cognates cannot be explained as a younger loanword from each other. They must be old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    The article I quoted of yours is almost a decade old, I was wondering if your views on this subject has changed at all?
    No. All the evidence still points around 2000 BC in the Volga-Kama region. Details have been refined, but no argument has been refuted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    If not, would I be correct to say Proto-Uralic looks like a language spoken by a sub-Neolithic population, with knowledge of bronze?
    It's a matter of definition... What separates sub-Neolithic from Bronze-Agean population?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto
    You also mentioned Aryans acting on Pre- and Late Proto-Uralic. Would you accept the possibility that PIIr and Pre-Proto-Uralic had contact in Siberia?
    EDIT:
    Pre-Proto-Aryans (3rd millennium BC) weren't yet in Siberia, they were in Europe. Only later Proto-Aryans or even later stages spread to Siberia. This is one of the things drawing Pre-Proto-Uralic in Europe. But before the 3rd millennium PrePU could have been in Siberia.
    Last edited by Jaska; 04-17-2021 at 05:48 AM.

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    Ok, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    It's a matter of definition... What separates sub-Neolithic from Bronze-Agean population?
    By sub-Neolithic I meant primarily hunter-gatherers, with maybe some second hand knowledge of agriculture and pastoralism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Pre-Proto-Aryans (3rd millennium BC) weren't yet in Siberia, they were in Europe. Only later Proto-Aryans or even later stages spread to Siberia. This is one of the things drawing Pre-Proto-Uralic in Europe. But before the 3rd millennium PrePU could have been in Siberia.
    Some users here believe Abashevo, or related groups, may have pioneered into Siberia quite early. I doubt this would have been in the first half of the 3rd millennium BC, however later (<2500BC?) seems possible.

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  17. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Pre-Proto-Aryans (3rd millennium BC) weren't yet in Siberia, they were in Europe. Only later Proto-Aryans or even later stages spread to Siberia. This is one of the things drawing Pre-Proto-Uralic in Europe. But before the 3rd millennium PrePU could have been in Siberia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    Some users here believe Abashevo, or related groups, may have pioneered into Siberia quite early. I doubt this would have been in the first half of the 3rd millennium BC, however later (<2500BC?) seems possible.
    Populations associated with the early spread of Indo-Aryan have already been found in ancient DNA from Siberia and near the Altai dating to 2,200-1,900 BCE.

    So it's likely that people speaking all sorts of Indo-Iranian languages were present east of the Urals even earlier than this.

    This means, of course, that Indo-Iranian influences in Proto-Uralic can't be used as a geographic constraint to claim that the Proto-Uralic homeland was in Europe.

    Is there any other reliable evidence/constraint putting the Proto-Uralic homeland in Europe?

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