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Thread: Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

  1. #11
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    Celto-Germanic, Near East
    Y-DNA (P)
    mtDNA (M)

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    TMRCA of the Samoyed-specific N-P43 line, i.e. N-VL64, is 3200 ybp, which is more or less 1200 BC. Therefore, this could be understood to mean that Proto-Samoyed started developing at that time. Common Eastern Uralic at the root of the Ugric and Samoyedic branches at 1500 BC makes much more sense than having Samoyeds separating 4000 BC and speaking Proto-Uralic until 500 BC. If you insist that Samoyeds separated 4000 BC, it is very difficult to fit with the yDNA data as the whole P43 that is shared with Turkic and other Altaic speakers has a TMRCA of only 4800 ybp, i.e. 2800 BC which coincides with the start of the Bronze Age.

    This tree by Jaakko Häkkinen is much better from the archaeological, linguistic and yDNA point-of-view:
    Attachment 37499
    Thank you Kristiina. I was not versed in the details and accuracy of the split times, however even in this scheme you posted, it looks like the deepest dichotomy is still (one way or another) Samyoedic-Ugric vs Finno-Permic. So the autosomal distinctions in my OP still need to be explained: why do only Samoyed-Ugrics have substantial Botai-related ancestry, while only Finno-Permic speakers have substantial Baltic_EST_BA-related ancestry?

    Btw, does Jaakko Häkkinen give an estimate for the formation date of proto-Uralic?

    According to Eske Willerslev, have the Botai humans genetically disappeared from the map or are they Proto-uralics or have they been absorbed by Proto-uralics?
    Botai ancestry is fairly rare today. DevilsGate/Boisman_MN is much more common, and it appears the latter (indigenous to East Siberia) beginning in the late bronze age largely replaced Botai-related ancestry across Central and West Siberia.

    That's why the observation that Samoyed-Ugrics have Botai ancestry and Finno-Permics largely don't is important IMO. Botai-related ancestry pretty rare, it isn't like IE steppe ancestry, which expanded/contracted and re-expanded again and again in various waves across thousands of years.

    I made a K=9 ancient calculator for East Eurasian peoples, was going to do a thread on this, but here are the other peoples with substantial Botai-related ancestry (this is an old run, doesn't include some of the Finno-Permics or others w/substantial/complex W Eurasian ancestry like Uzbeks etc, and "Scythian" is only used to sop up minor "western" ancestry).

    What is quite interesting is that Kets' genome-wide ancestry is very similar to Khanty and Mansi:

    Last edited by K33; 05-07-2020 at 06:56 PM.

  2. #12
    Registered Users

    Quick (dirty) run with the new Chinese samples.

    china .png

    With ADC - 0.25X

    china adc025.png

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to hokkanto For This Useful Post:

     Kristiina (06-02-2020),  perttimp (06-30-2020)

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