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Thread: Berbers in Ukraine/Poland

  1. #11
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    I would think that a connection between Poland and North Africa would be either via sephardic Jews, or via the wars against the barbary slave States of the Ottoman empire. ,

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    I would think that a connection between Poland and North Africa would be either via sephardic Jews, or via the wars against the barbary slave States of the Ottoman empire. ,
    My family have matches from all over Europe. We have polish matches. My mother get a minor Ashkenazi/Baltic % on some calculators/tests.
    Regions of Ancestry
    West Africa - East Africa - North Africa - Middle East - Southern Europe - South Asia - SEA & Oceania

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    My family have matches from all over Europe. We have polish matches. My mother get a minor Ashkenazi/Baltic % on some calculators/tests.
    The Ottoman slave network included Eastern Europe (Tatars sold slaves in the ottoman empire), so it might explain why a North African has such a connection. But a Jewish connection could be allot of different things, as Jews were very mobile in the Mediterranean region. It could also be pile-up matches. I have as an example, a Iranian Jewish match on such a region, which does not mean that I have any recent connections with Iranian Jews.

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    I see several people connecting my E-FT190481 Polish match to a Jewish origin, which I find very interesting, and do respect that opinion, but I must reiterate that this is strictly a male line match for both of us, and that I have no known Jewish ancestry myself. Perhaps I am missing something here, that someone can inform me of, but is this implying that our male line North African heritage is ultimately Jewish, and we do not realize that yet? I thought that our "Berber" haplogroup subclade was indigenous to North Africa, not the Levant, by all of the available evidence so far, though some have tried to connect it to an ancient male line Jewish connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mildlycurly View Post
    The presence of an English person with a Berber haplogroup is intriguing. I've done a bit of reading and found that the Fouke/Foulks/Foulkes surname is of apparent Norman derivation. There are documented Berber/French intermarriages in the period before 1066 due to the presence of Islamic caliphates in the south of France (one of the grandsons of Charles Martel-and one of my many times great-grandfathers- married a "Moorish" woman). The Normans mainly stayed in the north as their name implied, but they did marry people from other regions.

    Unfortunately my Arabic is terrible so I'm not sure if there's any cognate for Fouke aside from "fowq", meaning above.
    Yes, I agree that this could be a possible solution to my "Norman" origin, as an 8th century Berber chief named Munuza, in northern Spain, married the daughter of Odo, Duke of Aquitaine, which sealed a peace treaty between them, and then he rebelled against the Arab governor-general of the Iberian peninsula. After his eventual defeat and execution, Berber rebels could have escaped into France. I have been told that "Afalko" is a North African word meaning "eagle" (from inhabitants of the Atlas Mountains), and that "Afoulki" covers the concept of "beautiful" and "good" in that area also, with many derivatives of this word being found in southern France, around Aveyron, which was part of the Languedoc, where my ancestors might have been circa 850 CE, according to an uncertainty path on SNP Tracker. Of course Charles Martel was also quite active in this area at the time of Munuza and Odo, and, like you, I also have several descents from him. A family origin story (with no evidence to back it up), is that in 929 a "Baux" family member, of Provence, went to Normandy and became "Vaux", and his descendants invaded England with William the Conqueror, of which there are documented Vaux brothers listed in the Domesday Book of 1086. Perhaps there is a kernel of truth in some of these circumstances and stories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Foulks View Post
    Do you know what your Haplogroup and latest subclade is? My Polish match has traced his paternal line to 19th century Silesia.
    I am I2 and belong to native Vlah (Wallachian) people. In Kolomyia is a complex history mostly under Moldova and Poland but also a few other powers. At the turn of 20th century however majority of the city population (over 50%) was of Jewish ethnicity, the ruling class was mostly living in outskirts of town. Also dating into middle ages was some slavery of Romani Gypsies and also Mongolic Tatars and Tatar Cumans captured in war against Golden Horde. Was also some Germans captured but was more rare cases as Germans Saxons had a merchant status in the region and neighbouring Romania. Jews had a high status in this region, they arrived from Black Sea Ottoman ports, and later Crimean Khanate but also other parts of Eurasia, as this is crossroad at foot of Carpathian mountains and Europe. Similarly Jews were majority merchants, but also work in textiles and higher positions lawyers, doctors, etc in the past. So your match is from Kolomyia or Silesia? Silesia has a different history that was opposite part of Poland. I try to post some timeline I have for history in Kolomyia.

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    Kolomyia 1340-1991

    - In 1340 it was annexed to Poland by King Casimir III following the Galicia–Volhynia Wars, along with the rest of the Kingdom of Russia.

    - Władysław II Jagiełło, needing financial support in his battles against the Teutonic Knights, used the region as a guarantee in a loan which he obtained from Petru II of Moldavia, who thus gained control of Pokuttya in 1388. Therefore, it became the feudal property of the princes of Moldavia, but remained within the Kingdom of Poland.

    - Apart from the local Ukrainians and Poles, many Armenians, Jews, and Hungarians settled there. In 1411 the fortress-city was given away for 25 years to the Vlach Hospodar Olexander as a gift for his support in the war against Hungary.

    - In 1485 Sultan Beyazid II captured Belgorod and Kilia, two ports on the northern shores of the Black Sea. This became a direct threat to Moldavia. In search of allies, its ruler Ştefan cel Mare came to Kolomyia and paid homage to the Polish king, thus becoming a vassal of the Polish Crown.

    - Hetman Jan Tarnowski recaptured the town and defeated the Moldavians in the Battle of Obertyn. This victory secured the city's existence for the following years, but the Ottoman power grew and Poland's southern border remained insecure.

    - In 1589, the Turks crossed the border and seized Kolomyia almost immediately. All the burghers who had taken part in the defence were slaughtered, while the rest were forced to pay high indemnities.

    - The town was returned to Poland soon afterwards, but the city's growth lost its momentum.

    - In 1620, another Polono-Turkish war broke out. After the Polish defeat at Ţuţora, Kolomyia was yet again seized by the Turks. In 1626 the town was burned to the ground, while all of residents were enslaved in a jasyr.

    - After the war the area yet again returned to Poland. With the town in ruins, the starosta of Kamieniec Podolski fortress financed its reconstruction – slightly further away from the Prut River.

    - During the Khmelnytskyi Uprising in 1648–54, the Kolomyia county became a centre of a peasant unrest. Cossack forces of Bohdan Khmelnytskyi. Soon however with advancing Polish troops, Vysochan was forced to retreat to the eastern Podillya where he continued to fight under commands of Ivan Bohun and Ivan Sirko.

    - As a result of the first of Partitions of Poland (Treaty of St. Petersburg dated 5 July 1772), Kolomyia was attributed to the Habsburg Monarchy.

    - Prosperity returned to the town in the mid-19th century, when it was linked to the world through the Lemberg-Czernowitz railroad.

    - By 1882 the city had almost 24,000 inhabitants, including roughly 12,000 Jews, 6,000 Ruthenians, and 4,000 Poles. Until the end of that century, commerce attracted even more inhabitants from all over Galicia.

    - In 1900 the Jewish population was 16,568, again nearly 50% of the town's population. The Jewish community had a Great Synagogue, and about 30 other synagogues. In 1910 Jews were prohibited from selling alcoholic beverages. In 1911 they were prohibited from salt and wine occupations.

    - After the outbreak of the Great War, the town saw fierce battles between the forces of the Russian Empire and Austria-Hungary. Jews were abused for supposedly supporting the Austrians, and many Jewish homes were ransacked and destroyed.

    - The Russian advance occupied the town in September 1914.

    - In 1915 the Austrians retook the town.

    - As a result of the collapse of Austria-Hungary, both the town itself and the surrounding region became disputed between renascent Poland and the West Ukrainian People's Republic.

    - During the Polish-Ukrainian War of 1919, it was seized without a fight by forces of Romania, and handed over to Polish authorities. According to the Ukrainian Soviet Encyclopedia, it was taken over by the Polish bourgeoisie and land owners.

    - During the Polish-Bolshevik 1919 war in Ukraine, a Polish division under General Zeligowski tore through Bessarabia and Bukovina and stopped in Kolomyia during its winter march to Poland. Kolomyia was then temporarily occupied by the Romanians and the border was near the town (shtetl) Otynia between Stanislav and Kolomyia.

    - After the Polish-Soviet War it remained in Poland as a capital of a powiat within the Stanisławów Voivodship. By 1931 the number of inhabitants grew to over 41,000. The ethnic mixture was composed of Jews, Poles, Ukrainians (including Hutsuls), Germans, Armenians, and Hungarians, as well as of descendants of Valachians and other nationalities of former Austria-Hungary.

    - After the outbreak of World War II with the Invasion of Poland of 1939, the town was thought of as one of the centres of Polish defence of the so-called Romanian Bridgehead.

    - However, the Soviet invasion from the east made these plans obsolete, and the town was occupied by the Red Army.

    - In 1940 part of the local population were arrested by the NKVD, and sent to the Gulag system or to various Soviet prisons among which were Polish, Ukrainians, Hungarians, and many others.

    - In 1941, the town was seized by Nazi Germany. During the German occupation most of the city's Jews were murdered by the German occupation authorities and by local Ukrainian nationalists who had organized a pogram before the arrival of the Germans and had prepared lists of Jews to be murdered for the Germans when they arrived. Initial street executions of September and October 1941 took the lives of approximately 500 people. The following year the remaining Jews were massed in a local ghetto, and then murdered in various concentration camps, mostly in Bełżec. Several hundred Jews were kept as slave workers in a labour camp, and then murdered in 1943 in a forest near Sheparivtsi.

    - The Red Army liberated Kolomyia from the German invaders on 28 March 1944. Soon after that many construction workers, teachers, doctors, engineers and other skilled professionals began to arrive to restore the ruined city. They arrived from the eastern part of Ukraine and other parts of the Soviet Union.

    - It is now a part of Ukraine, independent since 1991.
    Last edited by Moldovlah; 08-03-2020 at 04:49 AM.

  11. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moldovlah View Post
    I am I2 and belong to native Vlah (Wallachian) people. In Kolomyia is a complex history mostly under Moldova and Poland but also a few other powers. At the turn of 20th century however majority of the city population (over 50%) was of Jewish ethnicity, the ruling class was mostly living in outskirts of town. Also dating into middle ages was some slavery of Romani Gypsies and also Mongolic Tatars and Tatar Cumans captured in war against Golden Horde. Was also some Germans captured but was more rare cases as Germans Saxons had a merchant status in the region and neighbouring Romania. Jews had a high status in this region, they arrived from Black Sea Ottoman ports, and later Crimean Khanate but also other parts of Eurasia, as this is crossroad at foot of Carpathian mountains and Europe. Similarly Jews were majority merchants, but also work in textiles and higher positions lawyers, doctors, etc in the past. So your match is from Kolomyia or Silesia? Silesia has a different history that was opposite part of Poland. I try to post some timeline I have for history in Kolomyia.
    The earliest known ancestor of my match was named Joannes Kolomozchy (the spelling differs in several documents), probably born around 1820 in Kobierno Posen, today in Poland. The grandfather of my match was named Valentin Kolomak, and was born in Krotoszyn in 1883. He was a Roman Catholic. Besides Poland, my match says there is a line of Kolomaks in Germany and the US.

  12. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Foulks View Post
    The earliest known ancestor of my match was named Joannes Kolomozchy (the spelling differs in several documents), probably born around 1820 in Kobierno Posen, today in Poland. The grandfather of my match was named Valentin Kolomak, and was born in Krotoszyn in 1883. He was a Roman Catholic. Besides Poland, my match says there is a line of Kolomaks in Germany and the US.
    Kolomak it seems most likely Ukrainian, but also common in Russia. Kolomozchy is not much info. Kolomoisky it seems prevalent most within modern Israeli population. Your place of interest (Krotoszyn) however is Central Poland.

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