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Thread: J-Z2432 South Asian subclade and turkic Karabakh Khanate

  1. #1
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    Exclamation J-Z2432 South Asian subclade and turkic Karabakh Khanate

    I tested one of the descendants of the Karabakh Khanate Khans direct patrilineal descendants and they appear to be J2 Z2432 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabakh_Khanate
    Y-STR markers on FTDNA order : 12 24 15 10 14-18 11 15 12 12 11 28 17 8-9 11 11 26 14 19 30 13-14-15-16 10 11 19-20 14 14 17 18 39-39 12 10


    So how the linage carrying this subclade ended up in Azerbaijan and become turkic warlord who established Karabakh Khanate? Tbh my guess is through turkmens in central asia given this subclade is old enough in South Asia it easily would have spread to nearby regions too.

    Any ideas?
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


    Azerbaijani Turkic Project
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  3. #2
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    BTW, he has only one match - just another ethnic Azerbaijani (4 distance at 37 marker level).
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


    Azerbaijani Turkic Project
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  4. #3
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    There is a J2b-Z2432>Y28237 sample on Yfull from Zangilan, Azerbaijan, is this him?

    So far Z2432+ aDNA samples have only been found in South Asia and Central Asia, so a movement into Central Asia from South Asian and then an expansion west with groups such as the Turkmens is possible. However there is the possibility that some Z2432 arrived in West Asia earlier or with different migrations as there are clusters found in the Arab countries.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 05-10-2020 at 06:41 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilgar View Post
    I tested one of the descendants of the Karabakh Khanate Khans direct patrilineal descendants and they appear to be J2 Z2432 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabakh_Khanate
    Y-STR markers on FTDNA order : 12 24 15 10 14-18 11 15 12 12 11 28 17 8-9 11 11 26 14 19 30 13-14-15-16 10 11 19-20 14 14 17 18 39-39 12 10


    So how the linage carrying this subclade ended up in Azerbaijan and become turkic warlord who established Karabakh Khanate? Tbh my guess is through turkmens in central asia given this subclade is old enough in South Asia it easily would have spread to nearby regions too.

    Any ideas?
    J2-Z2432 is found in several BMAC samples in greater Central Asia, as well as Swat Valley/Gandhara Grave Culture. I'd think that it likely spread with migrating Oghuz/Karluk Turks who derive a significant part of their ancestry from the BMAC.

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  8. #5
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    No it's not him. They they might be in same subclade. I have only ordered Y37.
    And regarding few Z2432 samples found in Middle East, obviously those samples do not have either their own ethnic clusters or own middle eastern subclades like in real middle eastern subclades of J1 P58, J M47 etc. I mean they should have been widespred among semitic people in case if this subclade was really ancient in the Middle East. I guess these are arrivals within 2 millenium at max.
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


    Azerbaijani Turkic Project
    Hidden Content

    Turkmenistan DNA Project
    Hidden Content

  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    There is a J2b-Z2432>Y28237 sample on Yfull from Zangilan, Azerbaijan, is this him?

    So far Z2432+ aDNA samples have only been found in South Asia and Central Asia, so a movement into Central Asia from South Asian and then an expansion west with groups such as the Turkmens is possible. However there is the possibility that some Z2432 arrived in West Asia earlier or with different migrations as there are clusters found in the Arab countries.
    No it's not him. They they might be in same subclade. I have only ordered Y37.
    And regarding few Z2432 samples found in Middle East, obviously those samples do not have either their own ethnic clusters or own middle eastern subclades like in real middle eastern subclades of J1 P58, J M47 etc. I mean they should have been widespred among semitic people in case if this subclade was really ancient in the Middle East. I guess these are arrivals within 2 millenium at max.
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


    Azerbaijani Turkic Project
    Hidden Content

    Turkmenistan DNA Project
    Hidden Content

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  11. #7

    Arabic samples are in the top of the M241

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilgar View Post
    No it's not him. They they might be in same subclade. I have only ordered Y37.
    And regarding few Z2432 samples found in Middle East, obviously those samples do not have either their own ethnic clusters or own middle eastern subclades like in real middle eastern subclades of J1 P58, J M47 etc. I mean they should have been widespred among semitic people in case if this subclade was really ancient in the Middle East. I guess these are arrivals within 2 millenium at max.
    and what do u say about the Arabic samples on the top of the M241.

    one for UAE and the other for Syria.

    It must be originated in the middle east and then migrated to southern and middle Asia.

    also, it is backed that the J2 was originated in the fertile crescent.

  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilgar View Post
    No it's not him. They they might be in same subclade. I have only ordered Y37.
    And regarding few Z2432 samples found in Middle East, obviously those samples do not have either their own ethnic clusters or own middle eastern subclades like in real middle eastern subclades of J1 P58, J M47 etc. I mean they should have been widespred among semitic people in case if this subclade was really ancient in the Middle East. I guess these are arrivals within 2 millenium at max.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilgar View Post
    No it's not him. They they might be in same subclade. I have only ordered Y37.
    And regarding few Z2432 samples found in Middle East, obviously those samples do not have either their own ethnic clusters or own middle eastern subclades like in real middle eastern subclades of J1 P58, J M47 etc. I mean they should have been widespred among semitic people in case if this subclade was really ancient in the Middle East. I guess these are arrivals within 2 millenium at max.
    firstly, J1 and J2 are wide spread in Arabic people

    then in M241 Yfull Arabic samples are in the top of the tree and they are old. there is only one Indian sample and it is related to research companies.

    yes it was assumed that the M241 is in southern Asia, but after the Arabic samples dominated the top of the tree, now the assumption need to be neglected.

    there are many Arabic samples that has the same M241 that will come.

    regards,

  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DNADiver View Post
    firstly, J1 and J2 are wide spread in Arabic people

    then in M241 Yfull Arabic samples are in the top of the tree and they are old. there is only one Indian sample and it is related to research companies.

    yes it was assumed that the M241 is in southern Asia, but after the Arabic samples dominated the top of the tree, now the assumption need to be neglected.

    there are many Arabic samples that has the same M241 that will come.

    regards,
    Neither M241 nor Z2444 is arabic because :
    1) This subclades were existing long before existing of any nation in the world
    2) Even Steppe sublades of R1a R1b haplogroups have plenty of arabic carriers, due to Mamluks and Turkic invasion. So you can just claim that all subclades and haplogroups which are present in Arabian peninsula has arabic origin.
    3) There is Ancient DNA found in Central Asian BMAC - Sample I4157, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2b-Z2432 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/
    4) Subclades which are originated in middle east has plenty of ancient local branches even today. For Instance J1-P58. There is tonnes of inner subclades of J1 P58 which are truly semitic or even arabic given their formation period.
    5) Keep in mind that arabic people are being tested massively unlike people of south and Central Asia. Sometimes it is a sampling bias and hence may cause wrong interpretation.
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


    Azerbaijani Turkic Project
    Hidden Content

    Turkmenistan DNA Project
    Hidden Content

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  15. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilgar View Post
    Neither M241 nor Z2444 is arabic because :
    1) This subclades were existing long before existing of any nation in the world
    2) Even Steppe sublades of R1a R1b haplogroups have plenty of arabic carriers, due to Mamluks and Turkic invasion. So you can just claim that all subclades and haplogroups which are present in Arabian peninsula has arabic origin.
    3) There is Ancient DNA found in Central Asian BMAC - Sample I4157, which dates to 3400 ybp, from Bustan, and belongs to J2b-Z2432 https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/
    4) Subclades which are originated in middle east has plenty of ancient local branches even today. For Instance J1-P58. There is tonnes of inner subclades of J1 P58 which are truly semitic or even arabic given their formation period.
    5) Keep in mind that arabic people are being tested massively unlike people of south and Central Asia. Sometimes it is a sampling bias and hence may cause wrong interpretation.
    I didn't say that m241 is Arabic first of all and I am not saying just because it in Arabic region that means it is an Arabic origin.

    I am saying because the Arabic samples in the top of the tree are Arabic and they have long history and from famous Arabic tripe.

    in addition many Indian samples,which I contacted they have some information form their grand fathers that their ancestry did came from the north Arabic region like Iraq and Syria like hundred years ago.

    what i am saying that the assumption that the m241 is originated in south Asia, which i understand due the lack arabic samples in the begnining of the haplogroud like 10 years ago, is not accurate any more.

    even the one study about J-m172 reached that it came to south Asia from the fertile crescent.

    regarding massive Arab people are doing the test, their numbers compare to the samples taken in India is too little.

    all the research samples in the M241 are from studies that have been done on hundred people and it can be seen in their website.

    all the Arabic samples in m241 are done by personal and 70% of the Indian are by research project.
    Last edited by DNADiver; 05-15-2020 at 12:48 AM.

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