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Thread: European admixture In Latinos

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diictodon View Post
    Why do many Latin American members say that results in the upper class and lower class in their nations will be different? Its a very weird concept to me as person living in the UK
    While a picture is worth a thousand words (re: RCO's post), there is plenty of literature on the subject of race and class in Latin America. Here's one small example: https://www.americasquarterly.org/fu...latin-america/

    Taken from that article:
    In Panama, for example, 90 percent of Indigenous peoples live below the poverty line and 69.5 percent live in extreme poverty, compared to just 30 percent of the non-Indigenous population. In Peru, 34 percent of Afro-descendants live below the poverty line, compared to only 23 percent of mestizos. In Brazil, per capita monthly incomes for Brazilians of European descent are more than double those of Afro-descendants. Similar poverty and income gaps can be found in countries throughout the region.
    In the U.K. there is also an obvious intersection between race and class, but I'd imagine its effects would not be quite as pronounced in terms of the overall balance seen among DNA test takers using a given commercial service, since the self-identifying "white British" majority is still quite large (87%) in relative terms and probably well, if unevenly, represented across different social classes, whereas there is probably enough social mobility among other groups to ensure both interest and the economic means to purchase kits. If you had a scientifically accurate cross-section of the population, however, you would almost certainly notice differences between class groups, since there are notable socioeconomic differences between some groups. "Indians" and "White British" come out about the same in most indicators, but there are significant discrepancies between, for instance, "Black Caribbeans" and "White British" according to the government's statistics: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/

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  3. #42
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    That's a terrible social reality. Yes, just like the different accents in the upper class and lower class, Cockney accent, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    While a picture is worth a thousand words (re: RCO's post), there is plenty of literature on the subject of race and class in Latin America. Here's one small example: https://www.americasquarterly.org/fu...latin-america/

    Taken from that article:

    In the U.K. there is also an obvious intersection between race and class, but I'd imagine its effects would not be quite as pronounced in terms of the overall balance seen among DNA test takers using a given commercial service, since the self-identifying "white British" majority is still quite large (87%) in relative terms and probably well, if unevenly, represented across different social classes, whereas there is probably enough social mobility among other groups to ensure both interest and the economic means to purchase kits. If you had a scientifically accurate cross-section of the population, however, you would almost certainly notice differences between class groups, since there are notable socioeconomic differences between some groups. "Indians" and "White British" come out about the same in most indicators, but there are significant discrepancies between, for instance, "Black Caribbeans" and "White British" according to the government's statistics: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/
    Interesting how class and prosperity is very strongly associated with race in LATAM, very different from the UK. Here, race is not really associated with class. For example, we don't say that South Asians are usually this part of a certain social class, because Indians are actually more successful than native brits, earning more money on average, while bengalis and esp. Pakistanis are much poorers and poorly integrated into society desipte being in the same race as Indians (even language and culture). Its even difficult to say that blacks are low class or middle class in the UK, because Nigerian and Ghanaian are similar in metrics and academic attainment as middle class whites, while Jamaicans do poorly in social indicators and wealth generation in the UK. Infact, the most poorerst segment in society in Britian is the white working class:

    https://www.ambition.org.uk/blog/bri...ng-class-boys/
    https://consent.yahoo.com/collectCon...b&inline=false
    https://newint.org/features/2018/03/...ass-in-britain

    This is why its so difficult for me to grasp some of the stuff LATAM members on TA say (like "you must got your DNA from a low class area" or " that phenotype is found in the slums/shanty town" etc)

  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    That's a terrible social reality. Yes, just like the different accents in the upper class and lower class, Cockney accent, etc.
    Yes but seems correlate with culture not racial background like in Latin America. Even US does not seem as extreme in representation in politics, Media (telenovelas) etc compared to Latin America
    Last edited by Diictodon; 06-24-2020 at 01:24 PM.

  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diictodon View Post
    Interesting how class and prosperity is very strongly associated with race in LATAM, very different from the UK. Here, race is not really associated with class. For example, we don't say that South Asians are usually this part of a certain social class, because Indians are actually more successful than native brits, earning more money on average, while bengalis and esp. Pakistanis are much poorers and poorly integrated into society desipte being in the same race as Indians (even language and culture). Its even difficult to say that blacks are low class or middle class in the UK, because Nigerian and Ghanaian are similar in metrics and academic attainment as middle class whites, while Jamaicans do poorly in social indicators and wealth generation in the UK. Infact, the most poorerst segment in society in Britian is the white working class:

    https://www.ambition.org.uk/blog/bri...ng-class-boys/
    https://consent.yahoo.com/collectCon...b&inline=false
    https://newint.org/features/2018/03/...ass-in-britain

    This is why its so difficult for me to grasp some of the stuff LATAM members on TA say (like "you must got your DNA from a low class area" or " that phenotype is found in the slums/shanty town" etc)
    Perhaps it's best not to discuss the particularities of the U.K., since that's off topic for this thread, but I would suggest you look at the official figures which I posted the link to, rather than blogs and opinion pieces (btw none of the links you posted work). Also, we're not talking about a direct causal relationship between "biological" race (which, of course, doesn't exist) and social class, but rather the ways in which perceived race (which almost inevitably intersects with one's cultural and class background) interacts with other factors to either limit or enhance one's upwards social mobility.

    If you study Latin America in its own right, without comparisons to Britain, you'll find that there is a vast amount of published literature on the subject. Pejorative comments from the TA aside (what happens in TA should stay in TA), the correlation between racial background (in broad terms, SSA or Amerindian background vs. European) and class is real and well studied in many Latin American countries. Of course each country has its particularities, and there is always room for nuance. All of this goes back to the colonial period. Many, if not all, Spanish colonies felt the effects of the "casta" system, in which those at the top of the social pyramid were Peninsula Spaniards, followed by American-born whites "criollos", then a variety of mixed-race categories, with blacks and Amerindians at the bottom. Brazilian racial hierarchies were arguably not as rigid (a much debated and controversial subject), but nonetheless very much present and deeply impactful. Despite the idealization of racial mixing mestizaje in Spanish, or mestišagem in Portuguese in some post-independence periods, particularly in the 20th century, a number of 19th and early-20th century Latin American countries were also profoundly affected by the ideology of "racial whitening" (blanqueamiento/branqueamento), in which continued immigration from Europe was encouraged under the thinking (inspired by the "scientific" racism of the time) that it would improve both the economic and social well-being of the nation and, in the opinion of some, lead to the disappearance, or at least the "dilution" of SSA and/or indigenous heritage. The European immigrants who came in the 19th and 20th centuries largely benefited from social advantages that locally born individuals of considerable SSA or indigenous descent did not, just as lighter skinned individuals had been more highly placed in previous periods. Despite some advances made since the mid-20th century, the legacy of this history has not disappeared, and Latin American countries have been in many cases comparatively slow to recognize the need to address the notion of social inequality as an issue profoundly linked to race as well as class.

    You mentioned shantytowns. Well, the famous favelas of Rio de Janeiro, for instance, developed as a direct consequence of the displacement of poor residents of the cortišos (poorly built housing units) from the city center to the hills during the first decade of the twentieth century, when the Rio cityscape was being transformed to look more like Paris. While the cortišo residents were racially mixed, including many poor whites as well as mixed-race and predominantly Afro-descended individuals, those who could afford to replace them in the newly reformed city center were generally whiter, while the early favela residents would be joined by migrants from the countryside, especially from more impoverished areas to the north, including large numbers of former slaves and their immediate descendants. If you visit a favela today and then go to an upscale neighborhood, you will clearly notice the difference. This is not to say that you cannot find individuals of predominantly European descent in favelas, or individuals of predominantly SSA descent in more upscale neighborhoods, but the average racial composition of each area is very different.

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