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Thread: Initial Upper Palaeolithic Homo sapiens from Bacho Kiro Cave, Bulgaria[

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Basal Eurasian is an outdated concept Ust_Ishim was instrumental in defining that concept, and then we found Ust_Ishim's brother Oase in Europe, and now I'm sure these BachoKiro folks will join that club.
    The problem is that we have a high coverage, low Neanderthal example of the Oase population called Oase 2 that doesn't show overwhelming affinity for Ust'Ishim in D-stats. See Figure 2.10 in the following Thesis:

    https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bit...=8&isAllowed=n
    Last edited by epoch; 02-26-2021 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #302
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    I1a1b-L22 [P109-]
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c7a*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    It's also useful in putting another constraint on where the Proto-WHG (Tagliente/Grotta Continenza/Villabruna/whatever) clade lived during the days of BK-1653. I know Vestonice and El Miron are modelled as having some Villabruna ancestry so clearly they were in Europe early on; I'm talking about the location of "pure" WHGs before their big expansion. If they were in SE Europe during BK-1653's time (30kya), it must have been south and/or west of the Balkan Mountains, no?
    What if WHG didn't exist and all this "admixture" is just drift toward the eventual WHG?

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    BK-1653 (merged BAMs A11203, A12363, A12562, A12950 and A15722) is a lower coverage sample, but consistent with belonging to haplogroup P-P226, and maybe even pre-R. He is CT+, DE-, C-, F+, F2-, G-, H-, IJ-, L-, T-, K2a-M2335-, K2b1-. This sample is significantly younger than the rest, and only ~2500-3000 years older than Yana samples which belong to clades P-P337 and P-P284. He has a couple of derived SNPs at R and R1 levels, but those are questionable (particularly R1) given his age and ancestral SNPs at P-P226 level. He is also Q- and expectedly R2- and R1a-.


    BK-1653; 32870-32260 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-P-P226 or pre-R
    That is a very wild guess. You have not established anything beyond PROBABLY F+.
    There is a difference between no call and negative call. The latter is still subject to ancient DNA damage but there are ways to make a reasonable guess.
    You should list all the relevant calls excluding non-calls.
    Any positive calls that have a negative call between them are likely false positives, especially the latter(downstream). If two negative calls come between them it is a very serious sign that the downstream positive call is false.

  4. #304
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    In this site
    HTML Code:
    https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=e355625d5fbe46469cfdc85fce6eb04a
    the map gives those messages for it:

    Object-ID BK-1653
    Colloquial-Skeletal
    Latitude 42.95
    Longitude 25.43
    mtDNA-haplogroup U8
    Y-DNA
    Y-New FTDNA confirms K-M2308+
    SNP-positive Milan Rajevac: CT;F; P-PF5867 level: Y507/M1267+ G>A (3A), P-P337 level: PF5511+ G>A (1A),P-P226 level: PF5487/M1201+ G>A (2A);
    SNP-negative DE, C, F2, G, H, IJ, L, T, K2a-M2335-, K2b1; P-P226 level: M1215/CTS3813/PF5491- G>C (10G); M1229/F359/PF5920- G>A (2C-1G); Q; R2, R1a
    SNP-dubious P-P284 level: *no calls*; R level: PF6002+ C>T (6T); CTS7876/PF6052+ G>A (1A); PF6034- A>T (1A); R1 level: PF5474+ G>C (4C)
    Y-Simple P
    YTree K2a-M2308 (P?; pre-P1??)
    Y-Haplotree-Variant K-M2308
    Y-Haplotree-Public K-M2308
    Y-FTDNA 更多信息
    YFull K-M2335
    Y-YFull 更多信息
    ISOGG2019 K2a
    Y-Symbol K
    Y-Symbol2 K
    Responsible-SNP FTDNA
    SNPs
    Kinship-Notes
    Source HublinNature2020
    Date 34810-34210 cal bp (Fewlass et al. 2021)
    Mean -34510
    CalBC_top -34,810
    CalBC_bot -34,210
    ArcGIS_top 101
    ArcGIS_bot 199
    Age
    Simplified_Culture Palaeolithic_Upper
    Culture_Grouping Initial Upper Palaeolithic
    Label
    Location Bacho Kiro Cave
    SiteID Layer 6a/7
    What means for K2a-M2308 ? Are there contaminations? I am an honest newbie!

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  6. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by aganmu View Post
    What means for K2a-M2308 ? Are there contaminations? I am an honest newbie!
    Great find. You already made a significant contribution to this forum.
    K2a is defined as M2335+ by Yfull, probably arbitrarily, but Ust Ishim and Oase had M2308+.
    I don't remember M2335 had a call for Ust Ishim or Oase but the former is of a very high quality so it probably was M2335-.
    This confirms beyond doubt that M2308 is upstream to M2335 and Yfull had better changed the defining SNP for K2a soon.

    This means that BK-1653 is probably related to Ust-Ishim and Oase patrilinearly.

    P.S. It is also possible that M2308 was either false positive or recurrent. I will have check the tree to determine it.
    P.S. There are 1 G->A SNPs at P level, 1 G -> A SNP at P1 level , 1 G ->A at P1a level.
    I cannot determine from these but from the circumstances and history I will wager those G -> A SNPs are from damage.
    Someone should work with the raw file or if Reich's lab has it, I may be able to work it out given enough time.
    Last edited by ybmpark; 02-26-2021 at 03:03 PM.

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  8. #306
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    Alta California
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    Mostly French + Italian
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    most likely J-L210
    mtDNA (P)
    K1b2b

    Canada Quebec Italy California Republic United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    Great find. You already made a significant contribution to this forum.
    K2a is defined as M2335+ because that is the most upstream SNP so far found in ancient remains(Ust Ishim and Oase) but apparently M2308 precedes it.
    If Pribislav is correct BK-1653 is M2335- so it is M2308+ and M2335-.
    For Ust Ishim and Oase M2308 was probably no call.
    Or maybe FTDNA made an error or M2308+ was a false positive for this guy.

    But if it stands, Yfull tree will have to use M2308 instead of M2335 as the defining SNP for K2a.
    According to YFull's live tree, Ust-Ishim is positive for M2308+ but negative for M2335 (-).
    MDKA: Robert Boulay, b. 1631, Réveillon, Orne, France
    Y-DNA: R1b-U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34 > Z33 > BY164497> BY3604

    Maternal Y-DNA: J2a-M67 > Z1847 > Y4036 > Z467 > Z447> L210

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  10. #307
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    I have a suspicion that there might be some quite different groups then, from today's perspective the gene gap would be repeated modified for marriages. Someone procreated more, and their genes would be more today. The remains of the ancestors(and ancestors siblings) should give high proportion ancestry data,so the ideal ancestors have been altered by history for married number of times. So the proportion of the given name of racial genes, are more elusive in more older history.

  11. #308
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    I know G25 isn't well suited for paleolithics but the only way to fit BK-1653 with Ust-Ishim is by also adding both WHG and Anatolian HG.

    Target: BGR_Bacho_Kiro_MUP:BK-1653_merge
    Distance: 3.7438% / 0.03743808 | R5P
    37.8 CZE_Vestonice16
    21.4 RUS_Sunghir
    18.0 RUS_Ust_Ishim
    13.0 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    9.8 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso

    How much Ust-Ishim or similar ancestry did Sunghir and Vestonice have? Sunghir probably had more than Vestonice

    Target: RUS_Sunghir
    Distance: 2.9520% / 0.02951985
    72.4 CZE_Vestonice16
    11.8 RUS_Ust_Ishim
    8.6 GEO_CHG
    4.0 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    3.2 CHN_Tianyuan

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  13. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    BK-1653 (merged BAMs A11203, A12363, A12562, A12950 and A15722) is a lower coverage sample, but consistent with belonging to haplogroup P-P226, and maybe even pre-R. He is CT+, DE-, C-, F+, F2-, G-, H-, IJ-, L-, T-, K2a-M2335-, K2b1-. This sample is significantly younger than the rest, and only ~2500-3000 years older than Yana samples which belong to clades P-P337 and P-P284. He has a couple of derived SNPs at R and R1 levels, but those are questionable (particularly R1) given his age and ancestral SNPs at P-P226 level. He is also Q- and expectedly R2- and R1a-.


    BK-1653; 32870-32260 BC; Bacho Kiro Cave, Dryanovo; Bulgaria; EUP; pre-P-P226 or pre-R


    P-PF5867 level: Y507/M1267+ G>A (3A)

    P-P337 level: PF5511+ G>A (1A)

    P-P284 level: *no calls*

    P-P226 level: PF5487/M1201+ G>A (2A); M1215/CTS3813/PF5491- G>C (10G); M1229/F359/PF5920- G>A (2C-1G)

    R level: PF6002+ C>T (6T); CTS7876/PF6052+ G>A (1A); PF6034- A>T (1A)

    R1 level: PF5474+ G>C (4C)
    Pribislav,

    Are you able to confirm this read?
    Object-ID BK-1653 ... Y-New FTDNA confirms K-M2308+

  14. #310
    BK-1653
    There are 5 SNPs at K2b* level and M526. These should be checked first.
    And then there is PF5850 for P* or K2b2*.
    And then there are 29 SNPs at M1254 level.
    Even though this is of a very low quality, it is difficult to think that all of them had no call.
    If we accept the 3 P SNPs and regard M2308 as recurrent, this guy diverged at P226 level and certainly is not "pre-R".

    Also to say he is K2b1- one has to check all 4 SNPs at K2b1* level.
    They have to have either no call or be negative.
    If all 4 had no call, then you have to check 13 SNPs defining M* and S*.
    If all of them had no calls you have to go down one more level. so on so forth.
    To exclude a certain branch requires a lot of work unless you find reliable postive calls for SNPs in a different branch.

    There was someone who speculated an Indian origin of P, I think she was Kristina and she cited ancient Andaman as evidence.
    Andaman is Indian for political reasons. It is not really Indian any more than Kamchaka is Russian.
    Geographically and ecologically it is Southeast Asian.
    Last edited by ybmpark; 02-26-2021 at 10:37 PM.

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