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Thread: Initial Upper Palaeolithic Homo sapiens from Bacho Kiro Cave, Bulgaria[

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfern-Ostrobothnian View Post
    What if WHG didn't exist and all this "admixture" is just drift toward the eventual WHG?
    I've heard that before, but as far as I can tell it isn't a very convincing argument.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  2. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Pribislav,

    Are you able to confirm this read?...
    Is Pribislav Milan, who uploaded these results to the site?
    Anyway I checked the new Reich data set and it does not seem to include Bacho Kiro samples.

  3. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    That is a very wild guess. You have not established anything beyond PROBABLY F+.
    There is a difference between no call and negative call. The latter is still subject to ancient DNA damage but there are ways to make a reasonable guess.
    You should list all the relevant calls excluding non-calls.
    Any positive calls that have a negative call between them are likely false positives, especially the latter(downstream). If two negative calls come between them it is a very serious sign that the downstream positive call is false.
    It's not a wild guess since I never claimed he belongs to P for sure. I said all calls combined are consistent with him belonging to P, which means there are no ancestral calls at upstream levels leading to P (GHIJK, HIJK, IJK, K, K2, K2b), nor are there derived calls at levels that split before P (F-Y27277, G, H, IJ, LT, K-M2335, K2b1). I also emphasized that derived calls at all three P-levels are G>A transitions so we can't know for sure to which one exactly he belonged to (if to any at all).

    As for M2308, I don't see it covered in any of the five BAMs, the only SNP at K2a-M2335 level I see is CTS11667, and it is ancestral.

    All SNPs covered from CT to P levels are in the spreadsheet, so everyone can make their own educated guess:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wJe...ew?usp=sharing

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  5. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    As for M2308, I don't see it covered in any of the five BAMs, the only SNP at K2a-M2335 level I see is CTS11667, and it is ancestral.

    All SNPs covered from CT to P levels are in the spreadsheet, so everyone can make their own educated guess:
    Only 70 SNPs, very disappointing. But I am sure that is not the full list. The percentage of C and G is very high and statistically that is impossible.
    CTS11667 was one of 2 SNPs Ust Ishim had. It was a huge boost in placing Ust Ishim into K2a. With only M2308 it could have been a false positive.
    Oase had no call there but with M2308 and by comparing with Ust Ishim it was quite convincing that he was K2a.

    I think FTDNA might have made an error. It is possible that Ust Ishim is M2308+ CTS11667+ while BK1653 is M2308+ CTS11667- but the chances are remote.
    If all his P SNPs are valid that means he was farther into MRCA of R and Q than either Yana. (ie. Both Yana's branched off earlier)
    If K2a can be found so far west, why not K2b2? But I am not really convinced though at this moment.
    Can I have access to the BAM files? I am sure there are more than 70 YSNPs even on the CT branch.

    P.S. I recall Yana's did not have many private SNPs. They were pretty close to the ancestors of R and Q. or so it was claimed.
    If BK1653's all 3 P SNPs are valid this is impossible since BK1653 is earlier than both Yana's.
    This erodes the case for BK1653 being P if he is genuinely M2308+.
    Last edited by ybmpark; 02-28-2021 at 03:35 PM.

  6. #315
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    https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.co...6eb04a, Are you Milan Rajevac?Are the analyses of Bacho Kiro Cave's specimens done by you? Adorable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aganmu View Post
    https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.co...6eb04a, Are you Milan Rajevac?Are the analyses of Bacho Kiro Cave's specimens done by you? Adorable!
    They indeed are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aganmu View Post
    https://indo-european.maps.arcgis.co...6eb04a, Are you Milan Rajevac?Are the analyses of Bacho Kiro Cave's specimens done by you? Adorable!
    That link isn't working.

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  10. #318
    The site totally dropped P from BK-1653 and BK-1653 is now simply listed as K2a.
    It appears that they are going with FTDNA and ignore Milan's results.
    Haplo-info site does the same.
    Until someone finds at least 1 negative call in the K2b* branch, I think it is premature.
    I searched FTDNA forum and there is no mention of Bacho Kiro cave.

  11. #319
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    People need to understand that BK-1653 has abysmally low Y-chromosome coverage, even with all five BAMs combined. So even if there is some derived call at K2a level, nobody should make some grand conclusions based on it, just like nobody should make such conclusions based on those few derived calls at P levels. It would be like claiming H2 was present in Europe during Paleolithic based on Brillenhohle sample.

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  13. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    People need to understand that BK-1653 has abysmally low Y-chromosome coverage, even with all five BAMs combined. So even if there is some derived call at K2a level, nobody should make some grand conclusions based on it, just like nobody should make such conclusions based on those few derived calls at P levels. It would be like claiming H2 was present in Europe during Paleolithic based on Brillenhohle sample.
    I hope they get some more samples from BK-1653's contemporaries.

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