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Thread: No Bantus or Niger-Congo In Cameroon

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post
    The bold is where you slipped. I did not conclude anything from this study. In fact in the opening post I even stated that more work certainly needs to be done on early West Africa.

    ................


    is why these finding could have enormous impact on how view African history is viewed. We have to remember the Bantu Migration from Cameroon is a completely European construct. There is no correlation with African nor European historians as to how Bantu's and Niger-Congo speakers in general came into the areas that they now inhabit. Essentially this theory was imposed on Africa and Africans. This isn't the first study that neutralizes the Bantu migration from Cameroon theory btw.

    Okay. Going by the linguistic evidence where did the Bantus orginated from? Keep in mind that there is no language without its native speakers.

    Futhermore, do you know any tale of the origin of Bantus that is recounted in traditional stories?

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.sparco View Post
    Okay. Going by the linguistic evidence where did the Bantus orginated from?
    Well some linguistic evidence suggest that homeland of Niger-Congo speaking populations as whole was somewhere in the Sudan or the Great Lakes Region. The existence of Kordofanian in Sudan is strong evidence of this as well;

    [I]Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton

    P 119-120. By way of conclusion to this general overview of the Mande languages, a a bit of judicious speculation about Mande origins and migrations may not be out of order. It has already been stated that the Mande languages clearly represent the earliest offshoot from the parent Niger-Congo stock—not counting Kordofanian, which Greenberg considers parallel to all of the Niger-Congo, forming a Niger-Kordofanian macrofamily. An original Niger-Congo homeland in the general vicinity of the upper Nile valley is probably as good a hypothesis as any. From such a homeland, a westward Mande migration may have begun well over 5000 years ago. Perhaps the earliest division within this group resulted in the isolation of what is now represented only by Bobo-fing. Somewhat later— perhaps 3500 to 4500 years ago, and possibly from a new homeland around northern Dahomey [now Benin]— the ancestors of the present Northern-western Mande peoples began pushing farther west, ultimately reaching their present homeland in the grasslands and forests of West Africa. This was followed by a gradual spread of the Southern-Eastern division, culminating perhaps 2000 years ago in the separation of its to branches and the ultimate movement of Southern Mande peoples southeast and westward until Mano and Kpelle, long separated, became once more contiguous.

    This reconstruction of Mande prehistory receives striking support from a most unexpected source— dogs. Back in the presumed Niger-Congo homeland—the southern Sudan and northern Uganda of modern times— is found the unique barkless, worried-looking, fleet Basenji, who also appears on ancient Egyptian monuments with the typical bee that compensates for his natural silence. Among the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia, a breed of dogs is found which is so closely identical to the Basenji that it now recognized as the ‘Liberian Basenji’. In all of the Sudan belt of Africa from the Nile Valley to the Liberian forest, the dogs are somewhat similar in appearance, but very obviously mongrelized. It would appear that the Mande peoples originally took their Basenji dogs with them in their westward migration. At that time, the present Sahara desert was capable of sustaining a substantial population, and was presumably the homeland of the Nilo-Saharan peoples. The early Mande moment thus may have been through uninhabited land, and their dogs were spared any cross-breeding. The farthest westward Mande movement—that of the Southwestern group—was virtually complete before contact with dogs of other breeds. With the gradual drying of the Sahara and the southward movement of the Nilo-Saharan peoples, the remaining Mande peoples, as well as later waves of Niger-Congo migration made contact with other people and other dogs. The present canine population of the Liberian forests thus reflects the very early departure of the Mande peoples from their original homeland, and the subsequent early movement of the Southwestern group towards its present location, without contacting substantial number of unrelated people or dogs."




    Futhermore, do you know any tale of the origin of Bantus that is recounted in traditional stories?
    As far as oral traditions are concerned.

    https://www.thepatriot.co.zw/old_pos...e-great-lakes/

    The Shona of Zimbabwe trace their origins to the Great Lakes region.

    From https://www.zulu.org.za/destinations...-nation-M56980

    Zulu Ancestors
    In the Great Lakes region of sub-equatorial Central-to-East Africa lived black races collectively labelled by early European anthropologists as 'Bantu' - a term derived from the Zulu collective noun for 'people', but used in certain scholarly circles to differentiate black languages from the click-tongues of Bushmen to the south.

    Among these so-called Bantu were the Zulu ancestors - the Nguni people. Named after the charismatic figure who in a previous epoch had led a migration from Egypt to the Great Lakes via the Red Sea corridor and Ethiopia, this new home of the Nguni is the mystical Embo of Zulu storytellers to the present day. Both pastoralists and rudimentary agriculturalists, Nguni wealth was measured in cattle - a tradition that continues throughout the modern Zulu Kingdom. There was however, no central authority at that time...nor was there even a clan called Zulu among those who constituted the Nguni people.

    The Zulu trace theirs to Egypt, and eventually the Great Lakes as well. Bantu linguist like Theophile Obenga (who participated in UNESCO 1974) agrees with an Eastern to Northeast African origin of Bantu and Niger-Congo in general. Though he does not recognize "Niger-Congo", and instead joins together Niger-Congo, Nilo Saharan, and non Berber or Semitic Afro-Asiatic languages to call it "Negro Egyptian".



    His students have expanded on, and or tweaked his model;



    What Obenga argues is radically different from what Greenberg has asserted regarding the Cameroonian Bantu origin/dispersal point. The thing is however, with this new study Greenberg's theory is simply not looking good at all. Again there are more studies (not aDNA however) that completely defile this Cameroonian theory. To the contrary Obenga's theory of an Eastern-Northeastern origin has gained some legs, with some recent genetic research (Hawass 2013; Keita & Gourdine 2018). Not to mention that the numerous indigenous oral traditions have never acknowledged a Cameroonian origin or West Africa in general. Not to mention that just about all remains in those regions of West Africa early on have been noted to be for the most part....Pygmies. How can Niger-Congo speakers "evolve" from Pygmies, and in such a short period of time? Not to mention that the M2 lineage itself came from the East.



    The question needs to asked when did it. Some scholars (C. Ehret) have postulated that this mass migration from East to West Africa occurred over 12,000 BC (in line with the Cameroonian migration), but this study is simply not supporting that assertion.
    Last edited by Ramond; 05-16-2020 at 09:49 PM.

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    Oldest solid E-M2 I can think of is Deloraine IA from Kenya, about 1100 years old. But there's no ancient DNA from West Africa at all, is there?

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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Oldest solid E-M2 I can think of is Deloraine IA from Kenya, about 1100 years old. But there's no ancient DNA from West Africa at all, is there?
    I found something a little older (about 1,200 - 1,100 BC) in Egypt;

    We amplified 16 Y chromosomal, short tandem repeats (AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit; Applied Biosystems).........Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a

    https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268

    S.O.Y. Keita gave this explanation a while back;

    The Distribution of E-M2 and it clades in Central and Southern Africa has usually been explained by the ‘‘Bantu migrations" (which occurred 3000-2500 B.C), in which agriculture and iron technologies spread from the Bantu's homeland located in the Benue complex i.e. Nigeria/Cameroon’’ But their presence in the Nile Valley and in other Non-Bantu speakers Can Not be explained in this way. E-M2 distribution is probably explained by their presence in the populations of the “Early Holocene Sahara”, Who went on to people the Nile Valley in The mid-Holocene era (12,000 B.P.) according to Hassan (1988). Keita and Boyce; Boyce, A. J. (Anthony J.) (2005). "Genetics, Egypt, and History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns of Y Chromosome Variation".

    From what Keita is saying, if the M2 lineage did not immediately go into Western Africa from it's East African Origin then it must have lingered around in the fertile Sahara. For it to be present in ancient samples in Egypt, then this migration must have included people with the M2 marker;

    Last edited by Ramond; 05-16-2020 at 10:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post





    The Zulu trace theirs to Egypt, and eventually the Great Lakes as well. Bantu linguist like Theophile Obenga (who participated in UNESCO 1974) agrees with an Eastern to Northeast African origin of Bantu and Niger-Congo in general. Though he does not recognize "Niger-Congo", and instead joins together Niger-Congo, Nilo Saharan, and non Berber or Semitic Afro-Asiatic languages to call it "Negro Egyptian".



    His students have expanded on, and or tweaked his model;

    Do these afro-centrics 'scholars' have any proof to back their claims, I would assume they have loads of evidence to dismantle the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family in favor of this label?

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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  8. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Do these afro-centrics 'scholars' have any proof to back their claims, I would assume they have loads of evidence to dismantle the Afro-Asiatic linguistic family in favor of this label?
    Does Diop's list suffice as proof. It's been around since the 70's-80's. If not why?

    Linguistic Unity With Southern and Western Africa
    In a detailed study of languages, Diop clearly demonstrates that Ancient Egyptian, modern Coptic of Egypt and Walaf of West Africa are related, with the latter two having their origin in the former.

    "Pharaonic Egyptian - Wolof; (Wolof meaning)


    Aku - Aku : foreigners (Creole descendants of European traders and African wives)


    anu - K.enou : pillar


    atef - ate : a crown of Osiris, judge of the soul (to judge)


    ba - bei : the ram-god (goat)


    ben ben - ben ben : overflow, flood


    bon - bon : evil


    bu - bu : place


    bu bon - bu bon : evil place


    bu nafret - bu rafet : good place


    da - da : child


    Djoob - Djob : a surname


    fero - fari : king


    itef - itef : father


    kau - kaou : elevated, above (heaven)


    kem -khem : black (burnt, burnt black)


    kemat - kematef : end of a period, completion, limit


    khekh - khekh : to fight, to wage war, war


    kher - ker : country (house)


    lebou - Lebou : those at the stream, Lebou/fishermen Senegal


    maat - mat : justice


    mer - maar : love (passionate love)


    mun - won : buttocks


    nag - nag : bull (cattle)


    nak - nak : ox, bull (cow)


    NDam - NDam : throne


    neb - ndab : float


    nen - nen : place where nothing is done (nothingness)


    nit - nit : citizen


    Ntr - Twr : protecting god, totem


    nwt - nit : fire of heaven (evening light)


    o.k. - wah keh : correct, right


    onef - onef : he (past tense)


    ones - ones : she (past tense)

    I've seen several other comparative "list" like this of other Niger-Congo speakers. The big question is, how does this obvious relationship exist, if Niger-Congo is not related to ancient Egyptian because it is an "Afro-Asiatic language"?

    While not "mainstream" there are quite a number of books and or references by different scholars. Many of which are Africans, and mostly Bantu. Obviously the most prominent linguist is Theophile Obenga, who to my knowledge is still a professor at some African university. Here Obenga addresses the controversies of the subject.



    Here he breaks down the Egyptian hieroglyphs via his "Negro-Egyptian"



    Him and Ehret did have a debate back in the 1990's in which "Negro-Egyptian" was put on trial, and it apparently held it's own.

    This guy who goes by "Ausar Imhotep" (an author) who just did a two part interview with S.O.Y. Keita a few weeks back did a pretty lengthy video the other day that touched on that particular subject. He examined a host of linguists, and examined how they broke down the language families.

    Last edited by Ramond; 05-17-2020 at 03:53 AM.

  9. #17
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    This isn't evidence, I wanted to see papers or perhaps books not youtube videos. I'll be honest, Egypt obsessed afro-centrists give black africans a bad reputation. They make it seem as if we suffer an inferiorty complex and aren't proud of our own heritage. A thread discussing the origins of NC linguistic family has turned into an Egyptian orientated discussion. It's ridiculous !

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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  11. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post
    Well some linguistic evidence suggest that homeland of Niger-Congo speaking populations as whole was somewhere in the Sudan or the Great Lakes Region. The existence of Kordofanian in Sudan is strong evidence of this as well............................






    As far as oral traditions are concerned.

    https://www.thepatriot.co.zw/old_pos...e-great-lakes/

    The Shona of Zimbabwe trace their origins to the Great Lakes region.

    From https://www.zulu.org.za/destinations...-nation-M56980

    Zulu Ancestors
    In the Great Lakes region of sub-equatorial Central-to-East Africa lived black races collectively labelled by early European anthropologists as 'Bantu' - a term derived from the Zulu collective noun for 'people', but used in certain scholarly circles to differentiate black languages from the click-tongues of Bushmen to the south.

    Among these so-called Bantu were the Zulu ancestors - the Nguni people. Named after the charismatic figure who in a previous epoch had led a migration from Egypt to the Great Lakes via the Red Sea corridor and Ethiopia, this new home of the Nguni is the mystical Embo of Zulu storytellers to the present day. Both pastoralists and rudimentary agriculturalists, Nguni wealth was measured in cattle - a tradition that continues throughout the modern Zulu Kingdom. There was however, no central authority at that time...nor was there even a clan called Zulu among those who constituted the Nguni people.

    The Zulu trace theirs to Egypt, and eventually the Great Lakes as well. Bantu linguist like Theophile Obenga (who participated in UNESCO 1974) agrees with an Eastern to Northeast African origin of Bantu and Niger-Congo in general. Though he does not recognize "Niger-Congo", and instead joins together Niger-Congo, Nilo Saharan, and non Berber or Semitic Afro-Asiatic languages to call it "Negro Egyptian".



    His students have expanded on, and or tweaked his model;



    What Obenga argues is radically different from what Greenberg has asserted regarding the Cameroonian Bantu origin/dispersal point. The thing is however, with this new study Greenberg's theory is simply not looking good at all. Again there are more studies (not aDNA however) that completely defile this Cameroonian theory. To the contrary Obenga's theory of an Eastern-Northeastern origin has gained some legs, with some recent genetic research (Hawass 2013; Keita & Gourdine 2018). Not to mention that the numerous indigenous oral traditions have never acknowledged a Cameroonian origin or West Africa in general. Not to mention that just about all remains in those regions of West Africa early on have been noted to be for the most part....Pygmies. How can Niger-Congo speakers "evolve" from Pygmies, and in such a short period of time? Not to mention that the M2 lineage itself came from the East.



    The question needs to asked when did it. Some scholars (C. Ehret) have postulated that this mass migration from East to West Africa occurred over 12,000 BC (in line with the Cameroonian migration), but this study is simply not supporting that assertion.
    Thanks for your explaination. I will definitely make some researches on the origin of the Niger- Congo language. Bantu people being native to Sudan sounds interesting. When going by this linguistic evidence Niger-Congo-language Speakers would be "proper", indigenous East Africans instead of West African migrants. That would blow the established theory about the Bantu expansion away.

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  13. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post
    Well some linguistic evidence suggest that homeland of Niger-Congo speaking populations as whole was somewhere in the Sudan or the Great Lakes Region. The existence of Kordofanian in Sudan is strong evidence of this as well;

    [I]Wm. E. Welmers. 1971 "Niger-Congo, Mande" in T.A. Sebeok, et al. eds. Linguistics in sub-Saharan Africa (Current Trends in Linguistics, 7), pp. 113-140 The Hague: Mouton
    This would be all well and proper if automsomal studies haven't conclusively proven a migrations from the Nigerian/Cameroonian hinterland, using ALDER to estimate admixture dates. In terms of the origin of NC people, yeah that's open to as much speculation as any cuz there's no ancient WA samples yet...but a Bantu migration is highly likely. Bantu Zone S speakers obviously trace their ancestry to the Great Lakes, its where they dispersed from (Eastern Stream). That's why there's so many cognates between for example, Great Lakes Luganda and South African Zulu.The Western stream via Gabon and Angola makes its way through Namibia and Bostwana and reunites at some point with the Eastern one, post draught i.e. 1000 odd years bp. Linguistics is hindered by its own idea of self-sufficiency, like philosophy of reason ignoring its limitations of experience i.e. Kantian. Population genomics has steam rolled it, is steamrolling it as we speak, but there needs to be much more dialogue between linguists and pop. genomicists for sure. Like I said, an original Eastern source for NC, sure why not, but to conclude a Bantu expansion didn't occur? Unlikely.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 05-17-2020 at 12:14 AM.

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  15. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    This isn't evidence, I wanted to see papers or perhaps books not youtube videos
    Well for one you didn't specify anything. You instead made a condescending remark. Let's learn how to be specific

    The "youtube videos" were lectures from college professors and authors of linguistic books themselves (Ausar Imhotep). The latter video goes down a list of sources throughout the tenure. I'm not going to waste my time gathering pictures and exerts from books, when you're simply going to chalk it all up as "Afrocentric". Something tells me that no matter what evidence is provided to you in support of those stances, you won't have anything to refute them like you want to. Perhaps you're going to point to the fact that Western scholars do not acknowledge those sets of facts, but you certainly won't have anything to refute what Obenga or any of his students (hence the "theory" has yet to be debunked, and is being built upon) have published.
    Last edited by Moderator; 05-18-2020 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Rude remarks

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