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Thread: No Bantus or Niger-Congo In Cameroon

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    This would be all well and proper if automsomal studies haven't conclusively proven a migrations from the Nigerian/Cameroonian hinterland, using ALDER to estimate admixture dates.
    These studies certainly point to that Cameroonian origin being debunked;

    The Bantu expansion revisited: a new analysis of Y chromosome 1 variation in Central 2 Western Africa
    Valeria Montano, Okorie Anyaele, David Comas5 2

    This is consistent with previous regional studies on Y chromosome diversity carried out in sub-Saharan Africa or in
    other continents which** failed** to detect a robust correlation between genetic and linguistic
    distances

    In this way, we were able to detect some noteworthy differences within and among Bantu-speaking populations, mostly due
    to haplogroups E1b1a7a (U174), E1b1a8a (U209), and E1b1a8a1 (U290), which contribute to their high level of inter-population differentiation and to the presence of distinct regional patterns of genetic variation. All these findings CONTRADICT the current VIEW of Bantu speakers as a homogeneous group of populations whose gene pools are mostly if not exclusively the result of a relatively recent population expansion

    and

    A genomic analysis identifies a novel component in the genetic structure of sub-Saharan African populations - Martin Sikora 2011


    "Studies of large sets of single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) data have proven to be a powerful tool in the analysis of the genetic structure of human populations. In this work, we analyze genotyping data for 2841 SNPs in 12 sub-Saharan African populations, including a previously unsampled region of southeastern Africa (Mozambique). We show that robust results in a world-wide perspective can be obtained when analyzing only 1000 SNPs. Our main results both confirm the results of previous studies, and show new and interesting features in sub-Saharan African genetic complexity. There is a strong differentiation of Nilo-Saharans, much BEYOND what would be expected by geography. Hunter-gatherer populations (Khoisan and Pygmies) show a clear distinctiveness with very intrinsic Pygmy (and not only Khoisan) genetic features. Populations of the West Africa present an unexpected similarity among them, possibly the result of a population expansion. Finally, we find a strong differentiation of the southeastern Bantu population from Mozambique, which suggests an assimilation of a pre-Bantu substrate by Bantu speakers in the region.


    The third PC allows us to discriminate between western/central (Mandenka, Yoruba), eastern (Maasai, Luhya), and southeastern populations (Mozambique), IRRESPECTIVELY OF LANGUAGE FAMILY. This is the PC that is mostly correlated with geography (Figure 2c), and the fact that it is the third RATHER THAN THE FIRST COMPONENT, as would be expected if isolation by distance was the predominant force shaping genetic diversity,16 implies that directional population movements (such as the Bantu expansion) and barriers to gene flow (such as that between food producers and hunter gatherers) are more relevant than geographic distance to understand the genetic landscape of sub-Saharan Africa. The distinction between west and southeast Africa is also shown with K4; at K5, the Niger-Congo speaking Luhya are separated from the rest. The new component that appears at KĽ6 is restricted to African Americans and Biaka Pygmies, and is the last component that can be attributed to specific populations.


    but not Pygmies). Among Niger-Congo populations, geography is the main factor explaining the genetic differences, with a remarkable similarity among western populations (Yorubas and Mandenka), which could reflect a burst in the expansion to the west, related to iron technology and Niger-Congo languages. (ii) The southeastern Bantu from Mozambique are remarkably differentiated from the western Niger-Congo speaking populations, such as the Mandenka and the Yoruba, and also differentiated from geographically closer Eastern Bantu samples, such as Luhya. These results suggest that the Bantu expansion of languages, which started 5000 years ago at the present day border region of Nigeria and Cameroon, and was probably related to the spread of agriculture and the emergence of iron technology,17–19 WAS NOT A DEMOGRAPHIC HOMOGENEOUS MIGRATION WITH POPULATION REPLACEMENT IN THE SOUTHERNMOST PART OF THE CONTINENT, but acquired more divergence, likely because of the integration of pre-Bantu people. The complexity of the expansion of Bantu languages to the south (with an eastern and a western route20), might have produced differential degrees of assimilation of previous populations of hunter gatherers. This assimilation has been detected through uniparental markers because of the genetic comparison of nowadays hunter gatherers (Pygmies and Khoisan) with Bantu speaker agriculturalists.2,21–24 Nonetheless, the singularity of the southeastern population of Mozambique (poorly related to present Khoisan) could be attributed to a complete assimilate on of ancient genetically differentiated populations (presently unknown) by Bantu speakers in southeastern Africa, without leaving any pre-Bantu population in the area to compare with"

    So what does this mean?

    There were no other Africans in Southern Africa besides the Khoisan to mix with, and that realtions between the Mozambique Bantu's and Khoisan has been found to be "poor". There was no phantom African population (see the map of Southern African populations/language families below)


    for them to mix with to be differentiated. This means that their genetic differentiation from other Niger-Congo speakers was long in place, but they with the other Bantu's were supposed to come from a "common West African origin". The Cameroonian origin for the Bantu has been destroyed on so many fronts. The archaeological evidence from McIntosh & McIntosh 1981 & 1986 even confirms that Cameroon and vicinity was uninhabitable swamp land until around 2,000 B.C. The area was obviously found to be sparsely populated. This new Cameroonian aDNA belonging to Pygmies may potentially break it's back completely.
    Last edited by Ramond; 05-17-2020 at 02:33 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dr.sparco View Post
    When going by this linguistic evidence Niger-Congo-language Speakers would be "proper", indigenous East Africans instead of West African migrants. That would blow the established theory about the Bantu expansion away.
    Yep! That's what the evidence points to to me.

  3. #23
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    We really need a dedicated moderator for the African section.

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  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sum1 View Post
    We really need a dedicated moderator for the African section.
    So what do you think about the OP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post
    I found something a little older (about 1,200 - 1,100 BC) in Egypt;

    We amplified 16 Y chromosomal, short tandem repeats (AmpF\STR Yfiler PCR amplification kit; Applied Biosystems).........Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1⇓); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a
    Yeah, I know about that one, but it's only a prediction from STRs; that's why I said the earliest solid case of E-M2.

    For the rest of it, the Shum Laka results do throw a lot of cold water on the idea of Bantu languages developing in the Grassfields region since 6000 years ago or whatever. It doesn't necessarily prevent Cameroon being the Bantu homeland later on, though, or somewhere else in the general vicinity. We look forward impatiently to more ancient DNA from Africa.

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  8. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post
    These studies certainly point to that Cameroonian origin being debunked;

    [CENTER]The Bantu expansion revisited: a new analysis of Y chromosome 1 variation in Central 2 Western Africa
    Valeria Montano, Okorie Anyaele, David Comas5 2
    Aite so I could spend time drawing up a proper response, with the corresponding figures and data, but what would be the point when first you circumvented my first point regarding linguistics - you seem to think language families and parallels between sub-groups are related to cognates and Swadesh lists, that is completely incorrect, linguists adjudge things based on grammar first and foremost and the forms verbs take based in primary nouns, for the most part. Two, the Mozambique paper you posted is from 2011, Semo et al (2020) studied Mozambique pops contrasted with the rest of Africa and there is minor differentiation between them and other NC populations, unless you think Admixture is a buncha colours - up until K6 they are no different to Bantu's, Semi-Bantu's etc, before they differentiate based on shared allelles and founder effects. Three, you suggest that Khoisan were the only population in Southern Africa, not true - you have the Malawi populations from Skoglund, who incidentally according to Busby, are suggested to have admixed with the Eastern Bantu stream before expanding from a Malawian epicenter. The Skoglund paper also had some other important considerations i.e. EA Pastoralists in Southern Africa forming a cline. Three, the crux of your position is based on the fact the Shum Laka paper (which isn't brand new, its been discussed ad nauseum) found the samples to be ancestral to Pygmies - the paper actually finds that the individuals are harbor West-African ancestry + Pygmy, instead of their modern counter parts who are in fact Bantu+Pygmy i.e. Aka. The paper also revealed both Ghost modern and Ghost archaic ancestry in modern West African populations, the significance of which can't be overstated. Like another poster said, the absence of samples does not mean an absence of evidence. A West-Central origin for the Bantu or 'West-Africa B' has in no way been demolished, but I agree that perhaps Cameroon/Nigeria border isn't the Bantu urheimat, more likely further West i.e. Bight of Benin westwards. Also without South-East Nigerian populations like the Effik, Enjagham, Ijaw and Eko and other Cross-River folk, the relationship between populations Cameroon onward and Nigeria west-ward can't be fully explored.

    Niger-Congo having far more ancient roots in the East is a real possibility imo, but the idea of the Bantu expansion not occurring or that NC Bantu pops are not of relatively recent West-African descent - very unlikely. The bombastic statement "This new Cameroonian aDNA belonging to Pygmies may potentially break it's back completely" is ridiculous if you mean to posit that the Bantu did not originate around the vicinity of the Niger-Delta or Gulf of Guinea.
    Last edited by ThaYamamoto; 05-17-2020 at 03:58 AM.

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  10. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Yeah, I know about that one, but it's only a prediction from STRs; that's why I said the earliest solid case of E-M2.
    Why would researchers reference, and even further validate information that is not "solid"?

    “Results that are likely reliable are from studies that analyzed short tandem repeats (STRs) from Amarna royal mummies5 (1,300 BC), and of Ramesses III (1,200 BC)6; Ramesses III had the Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7. Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African”- a point worth repeating.”

    FROM: -Gourdine JP, Keita SOY, Gourdine JL, Anselin A, 2018. Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt

    There's not doubt or precaution being used by these researchers here. I'd say that it's solid.

    For the rest of it, the Shum Laka results do throw a lot of cold water on the idea of Bantu languages developing in the Grassfields region since 6000 years ago or whatever. It doesn't necessarily prevent Cameroon being the Bantu homeland later on, though, or somewhere else in the general vicinity. We look forward impatiently to more ancient DNA from Africa.
    Agreed!

  11. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ThaYamamoto View Post
    you seem to think language families and parallels between sub-groups are related to cognates and Swadesh lists, that is completely incorrect, linguists adjudge things based on grammar first and foremost and the forms verbs take based in primary nouns, for the most part.
    Mboli who is one of Obenga's prodigies actually uses the comparative method, not Swadesh. The comparative method is the "gold standard" of these types of analysis. Greenberg who you seem to be defending uses the "mass comparison" method. This method has brought him great issues with other linguist that has left many issues "unresolved".


    "A Conversation with Jean-Claude Mboli

    Jean-Claude Mboli is an electrical engineer and also a historical comparative linguist who has done some pioneering work in the reorganization and validation of the Negro-Egyptian language phylum first conceived of by Dr. Theophile Obenga (1993). We will learn more about Mr. Mboli and discuss his latest work titled _Origine des langues africaines (2010)_ (written in French).
    "

    "The Comparative Method in African Linguistics: A Path to the Negro-Egyptian Language Family"

    In part 2 of our series on Egypt in its African Context and the Negro-Egyptian language phylum, we have as our special guest, again, Mr. Jean-Claude Mboli (author of Origine des langues africanes) as he goes through the steps of the comparative method in anthropological linguistics in an effort to inform the lay public on how to demonstrate the relationship between ancient ciKam (Egyptian) and modern African languages, as well as its position within the Negro-Egyptian language phylum. This will be a hands on discourse, so have your pen and paper ready.



    here again is what Mboli proposes.



    Also if you actually watched (rather than scuffing it off as "Hotepism") the video by Ausar Imhotep (or read his book) then you would see that he actually goes step by step demonstrating the validity of the comparative method. He does this while also moving past "Negro Egyptian" going straight into Sumerian, which he also argues through the same method has Bantu origin (call it what you want, but the data is the data). Start the video around 20 minutes in;


    Now if you're up to it, Ausar Imhotep does weekly videos. He is highly interactive with members of a mutual forum. If you'd like I can reach out to him, and you all can have a discussion about this. He's been a guess on Sa Neter TV (if you even know what that is...probably don't). There are a quite a few linguist "Bantu centric" scholars on those platforms actually. If you're that astute in linguistics, and want to put that "Afrocentrism" to rest, then just let me know "homie" I'll see what I can do to arrange that discussion.

    Two, the Mozambique paper you posted is from 2011, Semo et al (2020) studied Mozambique pops contrasted with the rest of Africa and there is minor differentiation between them and other NC populations
    It's still a noted distinction that has not been explained with admixture of any pre Bantu group(s) that were in that region. I didn't see you comment on "The Bantu Expansion Revisited" study that verified that the high differentiation among Bantu speakers is simply not indicative of a relatively recent homogeneous origins for the Bantus.

    unless you think Admixture is a buncha colours
    Do yo thang mane! I'm a CPA by the way... what do you do?

    - up until K6 they are no different to Bantu's, Semi-Bantu's etc, before they differentiate based on shared allelles and founder effects.
    Care to elaborate on that?

    Three, you suggest that Khoisan were the only population in Southern Africa, not true, - you have the Malawi populations from Skoglund,
    So what are you saying that those Mozambique Bantu's have a "Eurasian" affinity? Isn't that essentially the card tha Skoglund was trying to play?

    Three, the crux of your position is based on the fact the Shum Laka paper (which isn't brand new, its been discussed ad nauseum) found the samples to be ancestral to Pygmies - the paper actually finds that the individuals are harbor West-African ancestry +Pygmy, instead of their modern counter parts who are in fact Bantu+Pygmy i.e. Aka.
    Those are deep ancestral connections that likely arose in other regions of Africa (probably closer towards the Great Lakes region). Those connections do not suggest in any a smooth transition into the contemporary populations of West Africa.

    The paper also revealed both Ghost modern and Ghost archaic ancestry in modern West African populations, the significance of which can't be overstated. Like another poster said, the absence of samples does not mean an absence of evidence.
    So upon reaching West Africa, then the NC's possibly absorbed that "ghost population" perhaps?

    A West-Central origin for the Bantu or 'West-Africa B' has in no way been demolished
    Wait...But with their (NC) predominant paternal marker (M2 lineage) coming from East Africa, splitting from it's PN2 clade brother M-35 in..East Africa, (unless M-35 was in West Africa too?) West/Central origins of Bantu's never had legs in the first place. Doesn't that only make sense?

    Niger-Congo having far more ancient roots in the East is a real possibility imo
    Ya know I would definitely think so....



    Just like it's PN2 clade brother



    The bombastic statement "This new Cameroonian aDNA belonging to Pygmies may potentially break it's back completely" is ridiculous if you mean to posit that the Bantu did not originate around the vicinity of the Niger-Delta or Gulf of Guinea.
    You do know that this is not "my conjecture" right? I didn't pull this out of thin air. In fact some people much more credentialed than me (and you) had called this decades ago.



    How did he know that these were Pygmies in West and Central Africa 40-50 years before this NEW 2020 analysis? He must have been a psychic , because there was no other evidence to indicate that. We had to wait for this 2020 paper to verify this.
    Last edited by Ramond; 05-17-2020 at 06:01 AM.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramond View Post
    Well for one you didn't specify anything. You instead made a condescending remark. Let's learn how to be specific

    The "youtube videos" were lectures from college professors and authors of linguistic books themselves (Ausar Imhotep). The latter video goes down a list of sources throughout the tenure. I'm not going to waste my time gathering pictures and exerts from books, when you're simply going to chalk it all up as "Afrocentric". Something tells me that no matter what evidence is provided to you in support of those stances, you won't have anything to refute them like you want to. Perhaps you're going to point to the fact that Western scholars do not acknowledge those sets of facts, but you certainly won't have anything to refute what Obenga or any of his students (hence the "theory" has yet to be debunked, and is being built upon) have published.
    The moment you posted that tree with the Somali language being related to Congolese and other African languages had proven to me that you and the men you follow have an extremely dense ideological bias (Hoteps) .Only in the mind of Hoteps is the Somali language closer to Sango (a congolese creole) than to Semitic or Berber languages.



    If you have an inferiority complex towards non Africans, don't put that on other people who analyze facts that do not suit their Eurocentrism or wannabe Eurocentrism.
    Youtube videos and quotes from men who gave themselves Anient Egyptian names aren't facts.From here on out, I'm just going to ignore your long posts and suggest the other posters on this forum should do the same.

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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  14. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    The moment you posted that tree with the Somali language being related to Congolese and other African languages had proven to me. that you and the men you follow have an extremely dense ideological bias (Hoteps).
    These are your feelings. I called it earlier that you would not have anything to actually refute the data and arguments that Mboli nor Ausar Imhotep have presented. If you had linguistic credentials to debate these "Hoteps" (one is actually a continental African, which kind of throws a monkey wrench in the hotep characterization of "desperate" African Americans not proud of "their" history so they claim Egypt) then I would extend the invitation to you to possibly debate these people You don't have Mboli's credentials however, nor anything comparative.


    Only in the mind of Hoteps is the Somali language closer to Sango (a congolese creole) than to Semitic or Berber languages.
    No the three hour lecture, by Mboli and Ausar Imhotep this strengthened by their step by step breakdown of the genetic relationships of these languages. The fact that you judged this information before actually analyzing it is all the proof that emotionalism is the only force behind your instant rejection of these relationships. Vanessa Davis (Egyptologist - PHD) is being interviewed by Ausar next week. Why would a credentialed Egyptologist entertain a "Hotep" platform, but you with no credentials are too good to be receptive to their data? S.O.Y. Keita just did an interview with Ausar;



    We know for sure that his credentials are superior to your own as well. Somehow he was able to get passed that and have hour plus long interviews with a "Hotep", but somehow you with no credentials are above that. That's why I call your response emotionalism.

    Youtube videos and quotes
    Interviews and college lectures with reputed Dr's and PHD's on "youtube videos" is what you probably meant to say.

    from men who gave themselves Anient Egyptian names aren't facts.
    "OMG the audacity" . More emotionalism. Where are the Somali scholars? Do they have anything to say? Are there any Somali scholars on this subject? What works do they have about their people and history?

    From here on out, I'm just going to ignore your long posts and suggest the other posters on this forum should do the same.
    Oh let me go cry. Do you honestly think that I think highly enough of your emotional mindset to have my feelings hurt, because you don't want to talk me? I don't put stock into emotionalism, which is all that I have seen from you.
    Last edited by Ramond; 05-17-2020 at 05:29 PM.

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