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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #1321
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    on the contrary the so called EEF rich Yamnaya ozera likely will not be so much an outlier. But we will see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    on the contrary the so called EEF rich Yamnaya ozera likely will not be so much an outlier. But we will see.
    Ozera has Caucasian and maybe Central Asian admixture.

    Target: Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o:I1917
    Distance: 1.5694% / 0.01569357 | R3P
    45.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    40.0 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
    14.8 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

    I doubt there will ever be found any Yamna with higher EEF unless they lived in Crimea or some other borderline area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Several people have mentioned the rumor, which I think first appeared at the Eurogenes Blog, that R1b-L51 has been found in remains of the Volosovo culture.
    Last year Davidski wrote in his blog:

    Quote Originally Posted by Davidski
    There is one L51 in a Volosovo sample from Sakhtysh, but it's low coverage. A few others are just M269, and they're of much higher quality.
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...-for-year.html
    Last edited by Michał; 02-27-2021 at 10:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    Ozera has Caucasian and maybe Central Asian admixture.

    Target: Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o:I1917
    Distance: 1.5694% / 0.01569357 | R3P
    45.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    40.0 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
    14.8 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA

    I doubt there will ever be found any Yamna with higher EEF unless they lived in Crimea or some other borderline area.
    And that is . I think CWC came from a very specific borderline area of Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    And that is . I think CWC came from a very specific borderline area of Yamnaya.
    All of the early CWC samples had a little bit of extra WHG too. I wouldn't be surprised if they came from north/northwest of Kiev.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    All of the early CWC samples had a little bit of extra WHG too. I wouldn't be surprised if they came from north/northwest of Kiev.
    Yes the ratio Ukraine Mesolithic/Progress in CWC is a tad higher than in Yamnaya.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post744174
    Last edited by etrusco; 02-27-2021 at 09:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Does that red migration route (and the other routes) reflect the belief that the Middle Dnieper culture actually predates Corded Ware and could be the source of Corded Ware?
    Yes, it seems that the earliest stage of CWC/MDC in the Middle Dnieper region predates all other CWC sites found elsewhere. However, this early stage of CWC/MDC does not yet show all the features that are characterestic for the classical/middle stage of MDC (ie. the one starting from about 2800-2600 BC), and it seems that many researchers identify MDC only with the middle and later stages for which the radiocarbon dates are available and for which the distinction between MDC and any other (earlier or parallel) variants of CWC can be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    (You're apparently making MDC the direct source of Fatyanovo, as well.)
    I am definitely not alone regarding this one - see what Coldmountains has recently posted on this subject. And here is also the relevant quotation from the very recent paper by Saag et. al. (2021):

    Quote Originally Posted by Lehti Saag
    The strongest connections for Fatyanovo Culture in archaeological material can be seen with the Middle Dnieper Culture (23, 48) spread in present-day Belarus and Ukraine (49, 50).

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Are there any early Middle Dnieper-style burials along that route?
    The very specific local "Middle Dnieper style" developed most likely only about 2800-2700 BC. Thus, only after this date such an MDC-specific style could have been seen as spreading elsewhere, including Poland (see the typical MDC features found in the Sokal Ridge burials dated to about 2600-2500 BC) or Russia (see the earliest Fatyanovo sites dated to about 2700 BC). The earliest stage of CWC/MDC in the Middle Dnieper region (ie. the stage corresponding to the hypothetical Proto-CWC stage) was likely not associated with any specific "local CWC style", except all those featuers that are characteristic for CWC as a whole (including the battle axes, pots/beakers with corded ornamentation, etc.). However, when assuming that the Middle Dnieper region was the very place where the transformation from the "steppe package" to the "CWC package" took place, we should also expect that not all those new features were incorporated/developed at exactly the same time, so this is probably the major reason why the identification and classification of those earliest Pre-Proto-CWC and Proto-CWC sites is so difficult.
    Last edited by Michał; 02-27-2021 at 10:31 PM.

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    Okay, thanks for the answer. That's a possibility.

    I can't say you've convinced me, but I'm open to more evidence as it comes in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Last year Davidski wrote in his blog:


    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...-for-year.html
    We'll wait and see on that. I'll believe it when I see it. If there is M269 in Volosovo, it could represent an old EHG remnant line that petered out.

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    I hope no one minds if I continue to believe about Corded Ware what I currently believe, which I think is based on evidence I know about and can cite.

    Please, however, present what you've got on various other routes and theories on the origin of Corded Ware. I'm open to really solid, evidence-backed data.

    I'd really like to see what's out there regarding steppe pastoralist burials and artefacts along this or that route and what the rc dates on them are.

    Right now, I think Włodarczak's CWC chronology is the best thing I've seen. I won't post that again right now unless someone asks for it.

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