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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #151
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    I have a problem with the map detail, on that new Nordqvist and Heyd paper, that shows "Yamnaya" transforming more rapidly than one might expect (in a century) and later than one might expect, to produce the migratory result we have already seen on, or just under, the ground. It seems to me that the more northern route into western Europe (largely L51 and Corded Ware, the subject of this thread) needs to have differentiated pretty completely from the Z2103 guys -- who migrated earlier, took a more southern route, and ended up speaking pretty distinct branches of IE (Greek, Albanian), in a more Mediterranean climate.

    And that pattern, if it's not just a reflection of who got dug up and sequenced first, has made me suspect for some time that the guys cultivating grapes were richer in Z2103, and the cowboys were more L51. Either might have to migrate because of aridity; but not necessarily at the same time, in the same direction, or on the same waters.

    P1017003.jpg

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    Good to read the various POVs on this. For myself, am satisfied that L151 STR variance has in the past, painted a very strong picture of L151 spending longer in Baltic Russia (incl what is now Belarus/Poland) than in any other place in Europe. The 2nd longest L151 STR variance is Baltic Nth sea then Bohemia Austria then the Atlantic coast. What does surprise me is that so many people don't see the obvious pathway between the middle Volga and what is today St Petersburg.

    Around 7,500 ybp, there were R1b in the Narva Culture (R1b-L297) in Latvia while a close DNA clade match of R1b-L278 from that same era was in Samara (Khvalynsk). An obvious reason would could & should show that travelling up and down the Volga to the Baltic was being done 1000s of years ago. Getting from the area around lower Novgorod on the Volga/Oka junction (actually Veliky Novgorod), to the Baltic, would be a comparatively easy journey than the one undertaken by the L51 & Z2103 who travelled over 2,000kms in a very short time from Volga-Ural to the Altai mts (Afanasievo). That Afanasievo was a long fast trek and one might well ask why they chose to do it (R1a-Z93 pressure ?). Going up the Volga would have been simpler but if it were accepted that just at that era, going up the Volga represented big risks due to hostile tribes controlling the waterways, then fleeing the other way over mountains to the Altai region might be more appealing. Heading down the Volga to Kalmykia was also another route taken by a big tribe with Z2103 + I2 (note this migration from Volga-Ural to Kalmykia currently lacks any evidence of L51 burials).

    Over many 1000s of years the direct waterway between the middle Volga and the Baltic has been there and as mentioned appears to offer explanations as to how Baltic Narva & Volga-Ural Kvalynsk shared close R1b DNA burials 7,500 ybp. The Vikings later used both the Volga and Dnieper waterways extensively.
    The Volga-Ural region is not that important for the formation of PIEs like many assumed some years ago. Khvalynsk is simply to eastern (WSHG substrate, lack of any EEF ancestry) and northern (too low CHG) to be ancestral to CWC, Afanasievo and Bell Beakers. Rather Sredny Stog looks now like one of the first PIEs cultures and rather around the Don PIEs and their genetic profile formed. So most of L51 arrived in West Europe from Sredny Stog likely via a Steppe ->West Ukrainian/Polish->Bohemian route. Fatyanovo based on the preprint is pretty much ruled out for now as origin of Bell Beaker L51. Pre-Fatyanovo groups in Russia maybe had R1b-L51 from some earlier Sredny Stog waves, which were absorbed by Volosovo HGs, but it does not seem that they had a long lasting impact in the region because Volosovo continued to exist as HGs untill Fatyanovo replaced them. Volosovo HGs even with L51 are unlikely ancestral to pastoralist CWC and Bell Beaker groups rich in R1b-L51.

    Afanasievo and his L51 is from Sredny Stog and unlikely was pushed out by Z93. The migration of Proto-Afanasievo happened before Z93 expanded into Central Russia (2500-3000 B.C) and is likely linked to other socio-political dynamics, which we dont understand so far.

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post

    Afanasievo and his L51 is from Sredny Stog and unlikely was pushed out by Z93. The migration of Proto-Afanasievo happened before Z93 expanded into Central Russia (2500-3000 B.C) and is likely linked to other socio-political dynamics, which we dont understand so far.
    The problem I have with this view of L51 is that the current oldest burials (that I have on file) of L23 & Z2103 are from Samara in the middle-Volga. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is L23's place of origin unless and until older L23 burials are found elsewhere (such as the Caucusus), and assuming this is the current Samara home of L23, one should expect both Z2103 and L51 would have emerged close by. As we know (based on my last check) the oldest known Z2103 is also Samara. Also the L51 in Afanasievo is actually L52 (P310) which is more recent. The publishers of the Afanasievo paper state clearly they saw the Z2103 + L51 as coming from Volga-Ural. I agree 100%. If you believe they actually migrated from Dnieper Valley or from the Don-Volga junction, then add 500 kms on to that fantastic trek by the Afanasievo and hopefully you can point to a paper that supports that. The on-going R1a Z93 onslaught starting in Sth Ukraine, went up into and thru central Russia and then on down the Volga and from the Volga-Kama junction, through there into Khazakstan, Iran and India. If I were Z2103 or L51 and the R1a-Z93 were steadily heading my way (Volga-Ural area), I would do exactly what the Afanasievo people did. Flee fast and far. It is just to fantastical to believe they did that trek over 1000s of kms just for a look-see. The fact that so many Z2103 later settled closer to middle Volga but further south and south-east (even to Anatolia) says that going just a bit south got well out of the way of the R1a-Z93 horde.
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  7. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Afanasievo and his L51 is from Sredny Stog and unlikely was pushed out by Z93. The migration of Proto-Afanasievo happened before Z93 expanded into Central Russia (2500-3000 B.C) and is likely linked to other socio-political dynamics, which we dont understand so far.
    He's a long way from home, and no doubt faced many pressures from local and eastern pressures. Far reaching colonies can easily die out without support.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  8. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    The problem I have with this view of L51 is that the current oldest burials (that I have on file) of L23 & Z2103 are from Samara in the middle-Volga. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that this is L23's place of origin unless and until older L23 burials are found elsewhere (such as the Caucusus), and assuming this is the current Samara home of L23, one should expect both Z2103 and L51 would have emerged close by. As we know (based on my last check) the oldest known Z2103 is also Samara. Also the L51 in Afanasievo is actually L52 (P310) which is more recent. The publishers of the Afanasievo paper state clearly they saw the Z2103 + L51 as coming from Volga-Ural. I agree 100%. If you believe they actually migrated from Dnieper Valley or from the Don-Volga junction, then add 500 kms on to that fantastic trek by the Afanasievo and hopefully you can point to a paper that supports that. The on-going R1a Z93 onslaught starting in Sth Ukraine, went up into and thru central Russia and then on down the Volga and from the Volga-Kama junction, through there into Khazakstan, Iran and India. If I were Z2103 or L51 and the R1a-Z93 were steadily heading my way (Volga-Ural area), I would do exactly what the Afanasievo people did. Flee fast and far. It is just to fantastical to believe they did that trek over 1000s of kms just for a look-see. The fact that so many Z2103 later settled closer to middle Volga but further south and south-east (even to Anatolia) says that going just a bit south got well out of the way of the R1a-Z93 horde.
    There are so far no studies or even rumours about Z2103 or L23 in the Volga region significantly predating Yamnaya. Earlier cultures like Khvalynsk are unlikely ancestral to PIEs because the lack of even minor EEF, WSHG substrate and too high EHG/too low CHG. Maybe the ancestor of Sredny Stog L23 came from some very long time from this region but Yamnaya/Afanasievo definetly came from the southwest and replaced whatever was in the Volga-Ural region before them.

    The movements of Yamnaya and Afanasievo have unlikely anything to do with R1a-Z93 hordes "slaughtering" them. At first R1a-Z93 replaced Yamnaya-related R1b-dominated groups much much later (after 2500 B.C) and only after Fatyanovo when they started with Abashevo/Sintashta/Srubnaya to occupy more southern and eastern steppe regions untill that Z93 played no important role in the steppes between the Don and Ural. It was a mainly forest/forest-steppe line. Afanasievo not came from Central Russia and so far Fatyanovo is the first culture where the agro-pastroalist cultural package is documented in the forest/forest-steppes of Central Russia. Rather Afanasievo came from the Don-Volga region and the most eastern fringes of Sredny Stog tribes. Here Z93 tribes played no important role untill 2500 B.C and lacked socio-political power to cause any mass migration of "fleeing R1b-Z2103" tribes.

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  10. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    There are so far no studies or even rumours about Z2103 or L23 in the Volga region significantly predating Yamnaya. Earlier cultures like Khvalynsk are unlikely ancestral to PIEs because the lack of even minor EEF, WSHG substrate and too high EHG/too low CHG. Maybe the ancestor of Sredny Stog L23 came from some very long time from this region but Yamnaya/Afanasievo definetly came from the southwest and replaced whatever was in the Volga-Ural region before them.

    The movements of Yamnaya and Afanasievo have unlikely anything to do with R1a-Z93 hordes "slaughtering" them. At first R1a-Z93 replaced Yamnaya-related R1b-dominated groups much much later (after 2500 B.C) and only after Fatyanovo when they started with Abashevo/Sintashta/Srubnaya to occupy more southern and eastern steppe regions untill that Z93 played no important role in the steppes between the Don and Ural. It was a mainly forest/forest-steppe line. Afanasievo not came from Central Russia and so far Fatyanovo is the first culture where the agro-pastroalist cultural package is documented in the forest/forest-steppes of Central Russia. Rather Afanasievo came from the Don-Volga region and the most eastern fringes of Sredny Stog tribes. Here Z93 tribes played no important role untill 2500 B.C and lacked socio-political power to cause any mass migration of "fleeing R1b-Z2103" tribes.
    Thanks for your perspective.

    I fear though there is some exaggeration re the way you use the word 'slaughter', it is perfectly reasonable to argue that a tribal group such as dominated by R1a-Z93, could have and did carve a path through many regions between central Russia and Northern India. IIRC, the Scythians are dominantly R1a-Z93.

    I disagree that Abanasievo with Z2103/L52/I2 came from the don-volga junction particularly because the study that analysed them and published this year made the case that they migrated from Volga-Ural. To me, you are saying they got it wrong. I think they got it right.

    I believe there have been three very influential regions that relate to Sredny Stog and Yamnaya. One is the Don-Volga junction area, another is the Dnieper River Valley, and third is the area between Kazan and Samara in the middle Volga. This area has been very influential on many cultures. The problem we easily get into is defining who we are talking about when we say Sredny Stog or Yamnaya. Both have become very broad terms that get stretched over multiple different groups. As best I can see, Sredny Stog are dominantly (very) R1a. But someone might argue that saying this is narrowing down too much who Sredny Stog were. The same applies to Yamnaya. Is it a horizon (some believe so) or does Yamnaya as a culture really only mean Z2103 + I2. If Yamnaya includes L51, where *and when* did that happen ?.

    As always, it is very helpful to explore different views as it helps us hone our own. Debating these views is good.
    Last edited by dsm; 11-17-2020 at 09:34 AM.
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  12. #157
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    I wish there were more books in English on Corded Ware. You know, books, in the old fashioned physical sense, with nice illustrations, paper pages, and print that I can highlight and underline, and in whose margins I can write notes.

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    Here's a map I made showing all the Corded Ware R1b I currently know about and the ballpark locations of the finds.

    If you know of any more I left out, please let me know.

    Corded Ware map_Sjögren et al_with R1b-L51 find locations.jpg

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    Re the origin of Kurgan Bell Beaker, which I believe is to be found in Single Grave Corded Ware, recall that at least some of British Beaker is very much like Corded Ware in its autosomal DNA. Also recall that isotopic testing of the dental enamel of the Amesbury Archer revealed that he was probably born and raised in Alpine Central Europe, possibly in Switzerland or southern Germany. In Marc Heise's paper, "Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain", on pages 225-226, there is mention of a pin buried with the Amesbury Archer that is of a type found in Swiss Corded Ware.

    British Beaker is about 300-500 years later than Swiss Corded Ware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Thought there would be some interest here from the latest Eurogenes blog.

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

    In particular, the map below which states "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Ware c. 3000-2900 BC"


    Too bad it costs $25 to be able to read that paper by Nordqvist and Heyd.

    If it had some earth shattering, newly recovered ancient Y-DNA results in it, I would shell out the 25 bucks, but otherwise I'm too cheap to spend that much to read an archaeological paper.

    If Jean were still around, she would have it in her online library by now.

    I'm not familiar with Nordqvist, but Heyd is pretty sharp. It would be interesting to find out why he seems to think Corded Ware was derived from Yamnaya.

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