L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

[TigerMW]

In some circles, we still are. Some inhabitants of the Facebook group for R1b YDNA Project have gone home to alternative facts, or whatever, for a couple of days. P312 forming in the Balkans/Adriatic, U152 south of the Alps, DF27 on the Mediterranean shores just north of the Pyrenees, and whatnot. I'm finding it hard to switch back and forth from one conversation to another.

I view it as an educational forum. I have to keep reminding people of various things.
When I questioned the "L51 from the Adriatic" idea the reply was that was an old chart.
I think we are getting there, education-wise, but it takes time. It took a long time for Renfrew to wither from his hypothesis. It took a long time for the Iberian R1b refugium to dissipate. The embers are still there but you have to stamp on it from time to time with facts.
Celtic from the West is another area I'm a little concerned will be a sidetrack. I think it is possible, but it can't aligned with the P312 genetics well. First things firsts. You can't figure out Celtic unless you can figure out Bell Beaker, CWC, Unetice, Urnfield, etc.

[TigerMW]

Obligatory map

One of things I appreciate about this forum as it has forced me to learn the geography of Europe, which helps with understanding history among other things.
For fun and the sake of U152, I think you should add the Rubicon. It's very important no matter if it hardly exists any more.
I just drove up and down Rubicon Road yesterday in Austin. How important is such a river that phrases like "crossing the Rubicon" or "the die has been cast" have been with us to this day. Other than Christ and few religious figures of various types there is not such a man as well known as Julius Caesar. You can see large and expensive statues of him in Las Vegas as well as Rome.
On the other hand, I don't recall ever driving on a Danube Drive or Volga Boulevard or even Seine Street.
https://www.thoughtco.com/meaning-cr...rubicon-117548

[razyn]

I just drove up and down Rubicon Road yesterday in Austin... I don't recall ever driving on a Danube Drive or Volga Boulevard or even Seine Street.

You get stuff like that in Austin, where Teasips are allowed to lay out a subdivision.

But I checked Google maps. If you're eastbound on Stassney Lane, you pretty much have to cross Rubicon on the way to Milano's Pizza. So, there's that.

[GoldenHind]

I know you know this, but the oldest ZZ11 sample (DF27 & U152 shared ancestor), RISE563 (U152+), was found north of the Alps, ~165 years before the oldest DF27 recently found in SW France. That's roughly 5-6 generations prior.

I used to think that RISE563 was coming from the East, but he could very well have been coming from a SGC origin along the Rhine. Who knows? Maybe one day we will. We've come a long ways from R1b descends from Cro Magnons and Ice Age Refugiums thinking...well some of us have.

I still like the simplicity of P312 having explosive growth in/near the Black Forest north of the Alps (where Rhine, Danube, and Rhone sources come near each other inside red rectangle), with some L21 heading down the Rhine to cross to the Isles (Amesbury Archer L21 may have originated near the alps according to isotopic analysis), some U152 heading down the Danube (RISE563 is found near the Danube in Bavaria), and some DF27 heading down the Rhone and on into Iberia (near where oldest DF27 was found).

Obligatory map

This may work well for L21, DF27 and U152, but I think it is difficult to reconcile it with the other P312 subclades of DF19, DF99 and especially L238, which I think fit better with an expansion from somewhere closer to Denmark or the southern shore of the Baltic. Perhaps from the Elbe or the Oder? I need hardly point out that every P312 subclade is of equal importance in determining the origin and spread of P312.

I have wondered if the little known P312 subclade ZZ37 may provide an important clue. To date this has been primarily found in Britain, especially Wales and Scotland, yet it includes a segment with men of Finnish, Russian and German origins.

[rms2]

. . .

There is not any example of R1a in Afanasievo or Hungarian Bell Beakers . . .

You didn't mention Hungarian Bell Beakers in the post I was responding to, so you can hardly fault me for not including them.

That's also why I didn't bring up the Hottentots.

I still think there was a big pool of Indo-Europeans speaking roughly the same language and partaking of the same autosomal bank who nevertheless did not all belong to the very same Y-DNA haplogroup. The number of Y-DNA haplogroups was small, but it was greater than one, obviously.

[Silesian]

You didn't mention Hungarian Bell Beakers in the post I was responding to, so you can hardly fault me for not including them.

That's also why I didn't bring up the Hottentots.

I still think there was a big pool of Indo-Europeans speaking roughly the same language and partaking of the same autosomal bank who nevertheless did not all belong to the very same Y-DNA haplogroup. The number of Y-DNA haplogroups was small, but it was greater than one, obviously.

Crickets chirping, when you want to compare R1b-L51 Poland Rzeszów Foothills to R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware, Denmark Single Grave Culture. R1a-M17 and R1b-L51 Goldilocks scenario?
What explanation will be given when Yamnaya R1b-Z2109 will be found in Corded Ware along side R1b-V1636+?

[rms2]

Crickets chirping, when you want to compare R1b-L51 Poland Rzeszów Foothills to R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware, Denmark Single Grave Culture. R1a-M17 and R1b-L51 Goldilocks scenario?
What explanation will be given when Yamnaya R1b-Z2109 will be found in Corded Ware along side R1b-V1636+?

Once again, you seem to be expecting me to anticipate your next thought and respond to things you never mentioned.

Think I'll just let your posts go.

Don't think I need an explanation for a finding of Z2109 in Corded Ware. When have I said there never could be such a thing so that I would need to do some splainin'?

What do crickets and Goldilocks have to do with this subject?

[rms2]

From Reich's Who We Are and How We Got Here, page 119:

But theory is always trumped by data, and the data show that the Yamnaya also made a major demographic impact - in fact, it is clear that the single most important source of ancestry across northern Europe today is Yamnaya or groups closely related to them.

It's also clear that Indo-European languages and culture spread across northern Europe, along with that Yamnaya ancestry.

On the other hand, R1b-Z2103 and its subclades are very small minorities across northern Europe, so obviously other Y-DNA haplogroups were largely responsible for the spread of Yamnaya DNA and IE languages and culture.

That's not an attempt to knock Z2103 and subclades, which were big deals in Yamnaya on the steppe.

But it does show that there was apparently much more to Yamnaya than one single Y-DNA haplogroup.

[MitchellSince1893]

This may work well for L21, DF27 and U152, but I think it is difficult to reconcile it with the other P312 subclades of DF19, DF99 and especially L238, which I think fit better with an expansion from somewhere closer to Denmark or the southern shore of the Baltic. Perhaps from the Elbe or the Oder? I need hardly point out that every P312 subclade is of equal importance in determining the origin and spread of P312.

I have wondered if the little known P312 subclade ZZ37 may provide an important clue. To date this has been primarily found in Britain, especially Wales and Scotland, yet it includes a segment with men of Finnish, Russian and German origins.

I agree and it’s why I said growth instead of origin, and some L21/U152/DF27 instead of all. These smaller P312 branches and U106 have a center of gravity near the Baltic

[rms2]

If you were a young, energetic, R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 guy out on the steppe, but your horizons were limited because the R1b-Z2103 families owned all the cows, sheep, goats, etc., wouldn't you light out and seek your fortune elsewhere?

If you belonged to an upper crust Z2103 clan, the urge to migrate might not be so pressing.