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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    This may work well for L21, DF27 and U152, but I think it is difficult to reconcile it with the other P312 subclades of DF19, DF99 and especially L238, which I think fit better with an expansion from somewhere closer to Denmark or the southern shore of the Baltic. Perhaps from the Elbe or the Oder? I need hardly point out that every P312 subclade is of equal importance in determining the origin and spread of P312.

    I have wondered if the little known P312 subclade ZZ37 may provide an important clue. To date this has been primarily found in Britain, especially Wales and Scotland, yet it includes a segment with men of Finnish, Russian and German origins.
    I agree with you and I usually mention L238 whenever I can because it might very well end up being one of the most important clues, and most important P312 subclade, in regards to which path was taken by our L51 ancestors into Europe.

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  3. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I agree and it’s why I said growth instead of origin, and some L21/U152/DF27 instead of all. These smaller P312 branches and U106 have a center of gravity near the Baltic
    It may be just a coincidence, but the fact that subclades like DF19 (maybe also L238 and DF99, not sure) haven't been found anywhere before about 200AD may be at least in part because they came from a tradition that used cremation even in Beaker times. Northern Jutland was such an area.

    Connections with other parts of Beaker culture
    The Beaker group in northern Jutland forms an integrated part of the western European Beaker Culture, while western Jutland provided a link between the Lower Rhine area and northern Jutland. The local fine-ware pottery of Beaker derivation reveal links with other Beaker regions in western Europe, most specifically the Veluwe group at the Lower Rhine. Concurrent introduction of metallurgy shows that some people must have crossed cultural boundaries. Danish Beakers are contemporary with the earliest Early Bronze Age (EBA) of the East Group of Bell Beakers in central Europe, and with the floruit of Beaker cultures of the West Group in western Europe. The latter comprise Veluwe and Epi-Maritime in Continental northwestern Europe and the Middle Style Beakers (Style 2) in insular western Europe.

    The interaction between the Beaker groups on the Veluwe Plain and in Jutland must, at least initially, have been quite intensive. All-over ornamented (AOO) and All-over-corded (AOC), and particularly Maritime style beakers are featured, although from a fairly late context and possibly rather of Epi-maritime style, equivalent to the situation in the north of the Netherlands, where Maritime ornamentation continued after it ceased in the central region of Veluwe and were succeeded c. 2300 BC by beakers of the Veluwe and Epi-Maritime style.[20]

    Clusters of Late Neolithic Beaker presence similar to northern Jutland appear as pockets or "islands" of Beaker Culture in northern Europe, such as Mecklenburg, Schleswig-Holstein, and southern Norway.[109][110][111][112][113] In northern central Poland Beaker-like representations even occur in a contemporary EBA setting. The frequent occurrence of Beaker pottery in settlements points at a large-scaled form of social identity or cultural identity, or perhaps an ethnic identity.

    Burial practices
    In eastern Denmark and Scania one-person graves occur primarily in flat grave cemeteries. This is a continuation of the burial custom characterising the Scanian Battle-axe Culture, often to continue into the early Late Neolithic. Also in northern Jutland, the body of the deceased was normally arranged lying on its back in an extended position, but a typical Bell Beaker contracted position occurs occasionally. Typical to northern Jutland, however, cremations have been reported, also outside the Beaker core area, once within the context of an almost full Bell Beaker equipment.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture

    ^^Also, wasn't the Lilla Beddinge U106 found in a Battle Axe context but autosomally looking more south (Veluwe?)?
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  5. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    If you were a young, energetic, R1a-M417 or R1b-L51 guy out on the steppe, but your horizons were limited because the R1b-Z2103 families owned all the cows, sheep, goats, etc., wouldn't you light out and seek your fortune elsewhere?

    If you belonged to an upper crust Z2103 clan, the urge to migrate might not be so pressing.
    They were so many Z2103 that I really doubt that all were weathly, let alone at least middle class ("the middle class standard of 3000BC").

  6. #334
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    That is a legitimate option, considering the dearth of M458 lineages is linked to cremation; we didn't have a pre-Christian sample until the south German gentleman last year. Although I am not saying M458 came from north Jutland, too, it is just that the cremation conundrum was linked to a lack of this clade's samples, and could be a real possibility for the DF19 boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    That is a legitimate option, considering the dearth of M458 lineages is linked to cremation; we didn't have a pre-Christian sample until the south German gentleman last year. Although I am not saying M458 came from north Jutland, too, it is just that the cremation conundrum was linked to a lack of this clade's samples, and could be a real possibility for the DF19 boys.
    Probably a massive oversimplification, but maybe something like:

    P312 SGV>>Burning Beaker (Cremation)>>Protogermanic
    P312 SGV>>Inhumation Beaker>>Continental Protocelt (full body burials are the norm)

    Interesting that Irish Beakers used both cremation and inhumation.
    Ireland

    A modern reconstruction of the halberd from Carn, County Mayo, which was found with its oak handle intact. The shaft is just over one metre long.
    Beakers arrived in Ireland around 2500 BC and fell out of use around 1700 BC.[67] The beaker pottery of Ireland was rarely used as a grave good, but is often found in domestic assemblages from the period. This stands in contrast to the rest of Europe where it is frequently found in both roles. The inhabitants of Ireland used food vessels as a grave good instead. The large, communal passage tombs of the Irish Neolithic were no longer being constructed during the Early Bronze Age (although some, such as Newgrange were re-used[68]). The preferred method of burial seems to have been single graves and cists in the east, or in small wedge tombs in the west. Cremation was also common.
    ***
    The featured "food vessels" and cinerary urns (encrusted, collared and cordoned) of the Irish Earlier Bronze Age have strong roots in the western European Beaker tradition. Recently, the concept of these food vessels was discarded and replaced by a concept of two different traditions that rely on typology: the bowl tradition and the vase tradition, the bowl tradition being the oldest[81] as it has been found inserted in existing Neolithic (pre-beaker) tombs, both court tombs and passage tombs. The bowl tradition occurs over the whole country except the south-west and feature a majority of pit graves, both in flat cemeteries and mounds, and a high incidence of uncremated skeletons, often in crouched position.[82] The vase tradition has a general distribution and feature almost exclusively cremation. The flexed skeleton of a man 1.88 tall in a cist in a slightly oval round cairn with "food vessel" at Cornaclery, County Londonderry, was described in the 1942 excavation report as "typifying the race of Beaker Folk",[83] although the differences between Irish finds and e.g. the British combination of "round barrows with crouched, unburnt burials" make it difficult to establishes the exact nature of the Beaker People's colonization of Ireland.[73]

    In general, the early Irish Beaker intrusions don't attest[84] the overall "Beaker package" of innovations that, once fully developed, swept Europe elsewhere, leaving Ireland behind.[85] The Irish Beaker period is characterised by the earliness[79] of Beaker intrusions, by isolation[79] and by influences and surviving traditions of autochthons.[86]

    Beaker culture introduces the practice of burial in single graves, suggesting an Earlier Bronze Age social organisation of family groups.[87] Towards the Later Bronze Age the sites move to potentially fortifiable hilltops, suggesting a more "clan"-type structure.[88] Although the typical Bell Beaker practice of crouched burial has been observed,[89] cremation was readily adopted[90] in accordance with the previous tradition of the autochthons.[69]
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  9. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    They were so many Z2103 that I really doubt that all were weathly, let alone at least middle class ("the middle class standard of 3000BC").
    Don't think I said or even implied that they were all wealthy, just that the elite families may have been headed by men who were Z2103, which may have been a factor inspiring young R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 men to migrate.

    The lower echelon Z2103 families would have still belonged to the royal clans, perhaps enjoying some sort of privilege that made migration less of a draw for them.

    But maybe the class system was not the main reason behind migration or the success of M417 and L51 at migrating. It's just something to consider, since, pretty obviously, migration to the West and the Indo-Europeanization of most of Europe were accomplished by R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 men and not by R1b-Z2103 men.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-16-2021 at 12:35 PM.

  10. #337
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    Speaking of the success or failure of particular Y-DNA haplogroups, here is a case of R1b-V1636 in Single Grave Corded Ware in Jutland.

    V1636 is parallel to P297 (it is L389+ but P297-).

    Kind of irritating that we're waiting on rumors of big time R1b-L51 in Single Grave Corded Ware, but what we get is a paper with R1b-V1636 in SGC instead. (Yeah, I'm griping.)
    Last edited by rms2; 01-16-2021 at 01:00 PM.

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  12. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Speaking of the success or failure of particular Y-DNA haplogroups, here is a case of R1b-V1636 in Single Grave Corded Ware in Jutland.

    V1636 is parallel to P297 (it is L389+ but P297-).

    Kind of irritating that we're waiting on rumors of big time R1b-L51 in Single Grave Corded Ware, but what we get is a paper with R1b-V1636 in SGC instead. (Yeah, I'm griping.)
    In my opinion it's very important to narrow down specific snp's attributed to Yamnaya kurgan elite steppe R1b burials spanning roughly 1200 years and their offshoots --from 3300bc+/- to Poltavka 2100bc+/- Catacombe .Using R1b-Z2103 as a broad label is really not accurate as could be. Until we get more samples it remains speculative. The preliminary samples from kurgan steppe burials spanning those 1200 years points to R1b-Z2108-Z2109 clans as highly mobile kurgan burials spanning the steppe from Balkans-Hungary to Afanasievo.

    R1b-V1636 in Corded Ware Single grave culture Denmark is very interesting. From Haak et al
    Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe----

    R1b-V1636 and Yamnaya used the same grave sites in certain areas----

    .....................⦁ PG2001.B0101.TF + B0201.TF (BZNK-113/4), kurgan 1, grave 37, was the Eneolithic founding grave in mound 1 was found in an oval pit, thickly packed in red ochre. The grave goods consisted of a long flint blade, a flint adze, a flint projectile head and another flint object. A radiocarbon doublet of charcoal and human bone revealed a strong reservoir-effect in the human bone date. Dating: human bone 4991-4834 calBCE (6012±28BP, MAMS-110564), charcoal 4336-4173 calBCE (5397±28BP, MAMS-110563)................................


    Mound 4 was smaller with a diameter of 20 m and a remaining height of only 0.3 m. The founding graves were two Eneolithic burials, graves 9 and 12, which were found side by side and revealed practically identical radiocarbon dating. Both skeletons were thickly packed in red ochre and grave 12 revealed a complex trepanation35. One grave in this mound is associated with Yamnaya, four with the Middle Bronze Age (North Caucasus) and one burial dates to the Sarmatian period. Three individuals from Progress 2 produced genome-wide data:

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  14. #339
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    I didn't say it's not an important find: they're all important.

    What I said is that, from my perspective, it's a pain in the ass, because most of us are waiting on the fulfillment of the rumors of the last year that a number of papers are coming in which R1b-L51 features prominently, including at least one on Single Grave Corded Ware.

    I would have liked to have seen one of those papers. I could have gone on waiting for more V1636.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I didn't say it's not an important find: they're all important.

    What I said is that, from my perspective, it's a pain in the ass, because most of us are waiting on the fulfillment of the rumors of the last year that a number of papers are coming in which R1b-L51 features prominently, including at least one on Single Grave Corded Ware.

    I would have liked to have seen one of those papers. I could have gone on waiting for more V1636.
    I don't know if I'm interpreting the V1636 paper correctly. Does the graph show 2 L51 as Yamnaya?

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