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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #1331
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    Hey.

    I mentioned before that I have downloaded a number of archaeological papers from academia.edu that I haven't had the chance to read yet. I'm currently working my way through one such paper by Piotr Włodarczak, “The Traits of Early-Bronze Pontic Cultures in the Development of Old Upland Corded Ware (Małopolska Groups) and Złota Culture Communities” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 19, 2014). I like Włodarczak. His papers are interesting and well written.

    Even though I haven't finished this one, I thought I would mention it because it endorses two routes into Małopolska Corded Ware, one up the Dniester/Prut interfluve, which I have argued for, and the second from the Middle Dnieper via Volhynia.

    That ought to make a number of people happy, and I'm all for making as many people happy as possible.

    This is from page 7 of that paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak

    In Małopolska (south-eastern Poland)1 , Final Neolithic finds (Fig. 1) illustrate a rich and unique set of funerary rites unknown in any other region of the south-eastern branch of the Corded Ware culture complex (CWC)2 . Moreover, the finds from cemeteries are numerous and meaningful enough to allow their correlation with the rites of Early Bronze communities, settling the steppes and forest-steppes north of the Black Sea in the 3rd millennium BC.
    Pages 7-8:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak

    Over a decade ago, this perspective was changed by Jan Machnik’s studies that stressed the presence of grave assemblages with pottery displaying traits characteristic of the Middle Dnieper culture in Małopolska [Machnik 1999; Machnik et al. 2009]. The monographs drew attention to the possibility of long-distance migrations of groups of humans from the middle Dnieper drainage basin to the uplands of south-eastern Poland.
    Page 11:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak

    Furthermore, it is important to observe that the ties extended along two major directions (in other words: two communication routes – Kośko, Kločko 2011: 14-16): (a) latitudinal – from the middle Dnieper area across Volhynia to Małopolska and (b) southeast – northwest, following the convenient arteries of the Boh, Dniester, Prut and Seret rivers (Fig. 2).
    There are many more quotations from this paper - which is a gem - I could cite, but you get the picture. Evidently Włodarczak, a preeminent Corded Ware expert, thinks there were two pathways into old Małopolska: one from the NW Black Sea coast up the Prut/Dniester interfluve, and a second from the Middle Dnieper.

    Not bad. At least a few people will be happy.

    Maybe I'll post more of the quotes later, but I'm kind of tired right now.

    Recall that the oldest known Pre-Corded (CWC-X horizon, 3000-2900 BC) burials are currently from Małopolska, at Hubinek and Średnia, and you will realize how important Małopolska is in the Corded Ware saga.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-28-2021 at 02:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Recall that the oldest known Pre-Corded (CWC-X horizon, 3000-2900 BC) burials are currently from Małopolska, at Hubinek and Średnia
    You haven't responded to my previous question on this subject, so let me ask you again which particular Corded Ware burial at Średnia is dated to 3000-2900 BC?

    BTW, do you know any Yamna kurgans along the middle or upper headwaters of either the Dniester or Prut river that are securely dated to the period before 3000 BC? If so, which ones are these? Also, do you by chance know which are the oldest radiocarbon-dated Yamna kurgans located west of the Dnieper river?
    Last edited by Michał; 02-28-2021 at 09:42 AM.

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    Let me go back to the question of the so-called Eastern Group of GAC and how this south-eastward movement of the Globular Amphora folk could have affected the initial expansion of CWC. The expansion of GAC towards the territories located east and south-east from today's Poland started about 3100-3000 BC, so this is more or less when the expansion of CWC (going in the oposite direction!) is believed to have started, as well.

    Here is what Szmyt writes about the chronology of that south-eastward movement of GAC:
    https://www.academia.edu/11604220/Vi..._Millennium_BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Marzena Szmyt
    The chronology of the eastern group is known at a general level (Fig. 4), although many details are still subject to controversy (Kadrow − Szmyt 1996; Szmyt 1999; Mihăilescu-Bîrliba − Szmyt 2003). Towards the end of the 4th millennium BC (in its final century?), GAC settlers must have arrived in Volhynia, moving from the Lublin Upland (Szmyt 1999; 2001). Their movement towards Podolia and the Moldavian Upland was rather quick as shown by the dates attributed to grave assemblages in Romania (Mihăilescu-Bîrliba − Szmyt 2003). In the west–east direction GAC populations entered the area lying further east, however, in the drainages of the Horyn, Sluch and Teterev rivers, such interaction could have differed greatly in dynamics, i.e. the eastern movement continued longer than that towards the south (Szmyt 2009, 245–246).
    And here is a map from another paper by Szmyt that nicely illustrates that eastward and south-eastward movement of GAC:


    https://www.jma.uni-kiel.de/en/publi...92-furholt.pdf


    Most intriguingly, here is what Pelisiak writes about the relationship between GAC and CWC in this particular region (ie. in Volhynia, Podolia, or generally in Western Ukraine and SE Poland):
    http://www.archeologia.univ.rzeszow....2_Pelisiak.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrzej Pelisiak
    The ranges of the CWC and GAC settlements are exclusive. The distinct differentiation of the zones which were settled and exploited by communities of both cultures may be considered in terms of political situation. Here we deal with the groups of people engaged mainly in animal breeding, and in case of the CWC this kind of economy was connected with the specific social and economic organisation, that is the herder (pastoral?) system. As we can see in the maps of the settlements, the communities belonging to both cultures lived in the neighbouring regions, but they never tolerated each other within the same territory. The indirect evidence supporting this statement is the emergence of the CWC people e.g. in the Zbrucz basin, the upper Styr and the upper Horyń basins as late as in the early Bronze Age, thus after the GAC settlement process had ceased.
    And here is the corresponding statement about CWC and TRB/FBC:

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrzej Pelisiak
    The ranges of the FBC and CWC settlements overlap quite clearly. Moreover, within many CWC barrows, and sometimes beneath them the remains of the FBC settlements has been revealed. This picture is consistent with the settlement succession of both cultures, observed almost prevalently.
    And now about the relationship between CWC and the Tripolye culture (TC):
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrzej Pelisiak
    The range of the TC and CWC settlements generally excludes each other. Not until the early Bronze Age the CWC people had appeared far in the east, e.g. in the Zbrucz basin, and further north – in the Horyń basin. The process took place only in the period after the TC and GAC had vanished in these areas. It can be concluded from the settlements maps that the TC and CWC people did not tolerate each other in the same territory. Such a thesis does not have to be true, as the GAC people, not the TC communities, could be an obstacle for CWC.
    One important thing to notice is that CWC did not significantly expand into Volhynia and Podolia (or generally into NW Ukraine) untill the settlements of the Eastern Group of GAC ceased to exist, which happend by the middle of the 3rd millennium BC, thus long after CWC expanded all over the Northern Europe. This is also more or less the time when we can clearly see a new (second?) wave of migrants from the Dnieper region (this time with the typical/classical MDC features) to reach SE Poland.

    It is also worth noticing that Central Poland (where GAC still remained the "major power" during the first half od the 3rd millenium BC) was relatively poorly infiltrated by the migrating CWC groupings, so the CWC-occupied areas are seen mostly in the northern and southern peripheries, and this has significantly changed only after the BBC groupings started expanding from south-west and the Post-CWC Mierzanowice culture expanded in the eastern part of today's Poland. Such a very limited presence of CWC in Central Poland is also well seen on the map shown below (please also note that the large Volhynian-Podolian CWC group in NW Ukraine is dated only to the second half of the 3rd millenium BC, ie. after the GAC settlements disappeared in that region).





    All this raises multiple questions regarding both the major routes of the Early CWC expansion (directed west, north and east) and the frequently postulated genetic contribution of the GAC people to the Early CWC population.
    Last edited by Michał; 02-28-2021 at 11:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Let me go back to the question of the so-called Eastern Group of GAC and how this south-eastward movement of the Globular Amphora folk could have affected the initial expansion of CWC. The expansion of GAC towards the territories located east and south-east from today's Poland started about 3100-3000 BC, so this is more or less when the expansion of CWC (going in the oposite direction!) is believed to have started, as well.

    Here is what Szmyt writes about the chronology of that south-eastward movement of GAC:
    https://www.academia.edu/11604220/Vi..._Millennium_BC



    And here is a map from another paper by Szmyt that nicely illustrates that eastward and south-eastward movement of GAC:


    https://www.jma.uni-kiel.de/en/publi...92-furholt.pdf


    Most intriguingly, here is what Pelisiak writes about the relationship between GAC and CWC in this particular region (ie. in Volhynia, Podolia, or generally in Western Ukraine and SE Poland):
    http://www.archeologia.univ.rzeszow....2_Pelisiak.pdf



    And here is the corresponding statement about CWC and TRB/FBC:



    And now about the relationship between CWC and the Tripolye culture (TC):


    One important thing to notice is that CWC did not significantly expand into Volhynia and Podolia (or generally into NW Ukraine) untill the settlements of the Eastern Group of GAC ceased to exist, which happend by the middle of the 3rd millennium BC, thus long after CWC expanded all over the Northern Europe. This is also more or less the time when we can clearly see a new (second?) wave of migrants from the Dnieper region (this time with the typical/classical MDC features) to reach SE Poland.

    It is also worth noticing that Central Poland (where GAC still remained the "major power" during the first half od the 3rd millenium BC) was relatively poorly infiltrated by the migrating CWC groupings, so the CWC-occupied areas are seen mostly in the northern and southern peripheries, and this has significantly changed only after the BBC groupings started expanding from south-west and the Post-CWC Mierzanowice culture expanded in the eastern part of today's Poland. Such a very limited presence of CWC in Central Poland is also well seen on the map shown below (please also note that the large Volhynian-Podolian CWC group in NW Ukraine is dated only to the second half of the 3rd millenium BC, ie. after the GAC settlements disappeared in that region).





    All this raises multiple questions regarding both the major routes of the Early CWC expansion (directed west, north and east) and the frequently postulated genetic contribution of the GAC people to the Early CWC population.

    This article about the Schönfelder Kultur in relationship to Corded Ware Mittel-Elbe describes the interaction and sometimes agony.
    https://www.haz.de/Nachrichten/Wisse...Verbrechen-auf

    My impression is that in the Dutch area the findings of the Funnelbeaker and the Single Grave culture were near to each other. So the interaction most probably has lead to different patterns sometimes the new kids on the block prevailed sometimes there were resisting neolithic pockets.....

    But in the end they fuzed everywhere in Northern Europe even if this took centuries, even millennia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This article about the Schönfelder Kultur in relationship to Corded Ware Mittel-Elbe describes the interaction and sometimes agony.
    https://www.haz.de/Nachrichten/Wisse...Verbrechen-auf

    My impression is that in the Dutch area the findings of the Funnelbeaker and the Single Grave culture were near to each other. So the interaction most probably has lead to different patterns sometimes the new kids on the block prevailed sometimes there were resisting neolithic pockets.....

    But in the end they fuzed everywhere in Northern Europe even if this took centuries, even millennia?

    A parallel can also be drawn to the Polish Koszyce, probably a violent conflict between the newcomers from the Pontic-Caspian steppe Corded Ware and the GAC


    https://www.spektrum.de/news/das-mas...oszyce/1643358

    Here in English

    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705
    Last edited by Alain; 02-28-2021 at 01:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    You haven't responded to my previous question on this subject, so let me ask you again which particular Corded Ware burial at Średnia is dated to 3000-2900 BC?
    There are two of them from Site 3, Kurgan 1, mentioned in Piotr Włodarczak, “Chronometry of the Final Eneolithic Cemeteries at Święte, Jarosław District, from the Perspective of Cultural Relations among Lesser Poland, Podolia and the North-Western Black Sea Region” (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 23: 2018).

    Gd-10402 is dated to 3320-2902 BC, and Gd-10397 is dated to 3086-2703. See Table 3 on page 188. The Średnia site is referred to throughout the paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    BTW, do you know any Yamna kurgans along the middle or upper headwaters of either the Dniester or Prut river that are securely dated to the period before 3000 BC? If so, which ones are these? Also, do you by chance know which are the oldest radiocarbon-dated Yamna kurgans located west of the Dnieper river?
    As far as I know, there is a geographical gap between the specifically Yamnaya kurgans on and near the Dniester and the Corded Ware kurgans just north of them. However, as I mentioned before, there are a number of burial mounds filling the gap whose cultural affiliation remains undetermined. See the map below (I've posted it before). I don't know if those burials represent a transitional phase between YC and CWC. Maybe they do, but maybe they don't.

    Marciniak_map_Dniester river and Yampil cemetery complex.jpg

    I do not know which are the oldest rc-dated Yamnaya kurgans west of the Dnieper.

    If I can find some rc dates, I will post them, but I did find this on page 200 of the same paper I cited above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piotr Włodarczak

    Another contribution to refining the chronometric data has come from a research project on barrows in the Yampil region – the north-westernmost barrow group on the left – Podolian – bank of the Dniester River [Goslar et al. 2015]. The focus of the project was the analysis of contacts between forest-steppe/steppe communities and those from the central European cultural circle [Kośko (Ed.) 2015]. Radiocarbon dates obtained for barrows from the Jampol cluster correspond well with other recent results. They unambiguously show that some YC graves pre-date the older CWC phase in central Europe [Goslar et al. 2015: 281-283]. The younger YC stage chronologically corresponds with barrow graves from older CWC horizons. This chronological order is confirmed by the discovery of an amphora of type A in grave 2/6 at Porohy, Yampil raion, dug into a barrow mound [Harat et al. 2014: 87, Fig. 2.3.4:9].
    Last edited by rms2; 02-28-2021 at 02:07 PM.

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    I found the Goslar paper cited above by Włodarczak.

    I haven't had the chance to really read it yet, but a cursory look shows that the oldest YC burials of at least some of the Yampil sites date from the late 4th millennium BC.

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    Gosh, it seems like only yesterday I was talking about Volosovo, and couldn't recover the broad, area map I had in mind; so I linked to one specific Volosovo archaeological site. Oh, wait -- it was yesterday, it just happened to be 1:04 AM (my time zone). So I can't edit that post, from 34 hours ago. This is the part I would have edited:

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    ... Volosovo is invisible; rumor has it that it's going to be important in the L51 aDNA story. If so, note that the northernmost bump on your yellow line is near the Volosovo-Danilovsky site that was on one of the recent maps posted by Michal...
    Anyhow, today my brain unfroze and I found the missing map -- not on this thread, where I had searched -- but in my new (and mostly unread) copy of the Anthony et al (2016) report on the Samara Valley Project, A Bronze Age Landscape in the Russian Steppes, p. 16. The source (which a lot more people have at hand) is Fig. 15:5 in his 2007 Horse, Wheel, and Language, p. 379. But the updated version locates two more archaeological cultures, Potapovka and Filatovka, so I'll copy that one:

    P1017106.jpg

    I would note that all this is essentially Europe, the Ural mountains are at extreme right. And L51 also extended, anciently, far to the east (has been found in Afanasievo) -- not just where Corded Ware flourished. Sometimes it helps to step back a little, for the big picture. I don't know that this is one of the times. But we've been surprised, before this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    . . .

    I do not know which are the oldest rc-dated Yamnaya kurgans west of the Dnieper.

    . . .
    The table below is from page 261 of Tomasz Goslar, "Chronometry of Late Eneolithic and 'Early Bronze' Cultures in the Middle Dniester Area: Investigations of the Yampil Barrow Complex" (in Baltic-Pontic Studies, vol. 20, 2015).

    It shows dates from rc testing of wood and bone from Prydnistryanske 1. Older dates were obtained from the site Porohy 3A, but Goslar says they can't be trusted: he revises them down, so I'm not bothering with those.

    I'm not saying the dates from Prydnistryanske 1 are the very oldest YC dates west of the Dnieper. I don't know if they are or not, but they are available from the Goslar paper, so here they are.

    Goslar_Table 2_Prydnistryanske 1 dates_Yampil.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Gosh, it seems like only yesterday I was talking about Volosovo, and couldn't recover the broad, area map I had in mind; so I linked to one specific Volosovo archaeological site. Oh, wait -- it was yesterday, it just happened to be 1:04 AM (my time zone). So I can't edit that post, from 34 hours ago. This is the part I would have edited:



    Anyhow, today my brain unfroze and I found the missing map -- not on this thread, where I had searched -- but in my new (and mostly unread) copy of the Anthony et al (2016) report on the Samara Valley Project, A Bronze Age Landscape in the Russian Steppes, p. 16. The source (which a lot more people have at hand) is Fig. 15:5 in his 2007 Horse, Wheel, and Language, p. 379. But the updated version locates two more archaeological cultures, Potapovka and Filatovka, so I'll copy that one:

    P1017106.jpg

    I would note that all this is essentially Europe, the Ural mountains are at extreme right. And L51 also extended, anciently, far to the east (has been found in Afanasievo) -- not just where Corded Ware flourished. Sometimes it helps to step back a little, for the big picture. I don't know that this is one of the times. But we've been surprised, before this.
    I for one will be really surprised if there is any actual, verifiable R1b-L51 in Volosovo. The rumor I heard (discussed some posts back) is that it is R1b-U106, and I don't believe that. Michał posted a link to a Eurogenes Blog post by Davidski that says the single supposed L51 sample was very low coverage but that there are some R1b-M269 results that are better.

    Maybe. If there is any kind of R1b in Volosovo that is not a product of contamination, it probably represents an old remnant EHG line in a forager cultural backwater that eventually just petered out.

    R1b-L51 in an old forager culture like that, with no steppe DNA, just flat out contradicts too much that we already know and also some of the other current rumors.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-28-2021 at 05:34 PM.

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