Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 120

Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #81
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by uintah106 View Post
    Because R1a seems to have penetrated western Europe first as far as indo European Y lines but the "Beast of a Haplogroup " got replaced by L-151
    It doesn't look to me like R1a was the first Indo-European y-dna line to penetrate western Europe. It looks like R1b-L51 might have been in the first CW wave west. We don't have any y-dna from Single Grave in the Netherlands, for example, and if you look at the CW stuff that just popped up in Switzerland, it's R1b-L51.

    R1a is "a beast of a haplogroup". Saying that doesn't take anything away from R1b-M269.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Generalissimo (05-24-2020),  Mis (05-24-2020),  peternorth (05-24-2020)

  3. #82
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,580
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Breton & Maineau
    Nationality
    French
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-BY145002 (DF13+)
    mtDNA (M)
    U4c1a

    France France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I know there is a kind of ebb and flow to these Anthrogenica threads that results in some posts receiving little to no attention - or maybe sometimes things that are interesting or cool to me just don't strike everybody else the same way.

    Anyway, did anyone catch what I posted about the no-man's-land of several hundred kilometers maintained between Yamnaya and Corded Ware?

    The authors of the article, "Pit Graves, Yamnaya and Kurgans along the Lower Danube", Frinculeasa, Preda, and Heyd, mention it on page 67:



    As I mentioned in that earlier post, it looks like the two groups tried to avoid conflict with one another, in contrast to the women-stealing and wipe-outs CW was perpetrating against GAC.

    Care to comment?

    Were CW and Yamnaya herders still speaking mutually-intelligible IE dialects at that time (late 4th millennium - early 3rd millennium BC) and recognized each other as kin?
    The GAC population seems rather difficult to distinguish from the neolitic population of Western Europe.
    But do you think that a CW and GAC mix could have given the Bell beakers further west, Or are the beakers a CW and local neolithic mix?
    I still have this question of the origin of the Neolithics in the DNA of Modern's Western Europeans: Does it come from the Neolithics of Western Europe, or from GACs, or both?
    Sorry if my question is a little on the fringes of the main subject...
    Y haplogroup: R1b: L21 --> DF13 --> BY145002
    The oldest L21 known are I2457 et I2565 from Stonehenge (Beaker Culture, 2400-1900 BC)

    MTDNA: U4c1
    The oldest U4c1 known are "poz224", Yamnaya culture (2882-2698 BC), and 2 Bell-Beaker in Germany (Karsdorf, 2314-2042 BC)

    Paternal MTDNA: K1b2b
    The oldest K1b2 are Eastern European Mesolithic: Kunda Donkalnis5 (Lithuania), 6000 BC and Meso-Ene Lepenski Vir Lepe28 in Serbia, 5900 BC.
    The oldest K1b2b is Alt-3, Corded-Ware Germany (2500 BC)

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tolan For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (05-24-2020),  slievenamon (05-24-2020)

  5. #83
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    The GAC population seems rather difficult to distinguish from the neolitic population of Western Europe.
    But do you think that a CW and GAC mix could have given the Bell beakers further west, Or are the beakers a CW and local neolithic mix?
    I still have this question of the origin of the Neolithics in the DNA of Modern's Western Europeans: Does it come from the Neolithics of Western Europe, or from GACs, or both?
    Sorry if my question is a little on the fringes of the main subject...
    I don't think that is off-topic at all.

    The original Olalde et al Beaker paper pre-print said that the Neolithic farmer element in Beaker most closely resembled GAC and Swedish TRB. The "Swedish" part is a little confusing, at least for me (but I'm easily confused). If Swedish TRB is like continental TRB, then the GAC+TRB part makes perfect sense, since that was what lay along the path of Corded Ware into the North European plain.

    Beaker had more farmer dna than Corded Ware simply because Beaker began a little later than Corded Ware, and its people had more time to be the products of admixture.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-24-2020 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Wording

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Mis (05-24-2020),  Tolan (05-25-2020)

  7. #84
    Registered Users
    Posts
    152
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Danish/German/British
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-S11493
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1
    Y-DNA (M)
    R U106

    Denmark Germany United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    It doesn't look to me like R1a was the first Indo-European y-dna line to penetrate western Europe. It looks like R1b-L51 might have been in the first CW wave west. We don't have any y-dna from Single Grave in the Netherlands, for example, and if you look at the CW stuff that just popped up in Switzerland, it's R1b-L51.

    R1a is "a beast of a haplogroup". Saying that doesn't take anything away from R1b-M269.
    No, though that was the intent.

  8. #85
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by uintah106 View Post
    No, though that was the intent.
    I don't see it.

    Given all he has done in the past few years to assert that R1b-M269 is Indo-European and to then advance that idea, I'd say it's highly unlikely his intent was to denigrate it.

    A little bragging about one's own y haplogroup is not so bad.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (06-04-2020),  parasar (05-24-2020)

  10. #86
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    So many new papers in the last couple of weeks, but none of the rumored early Corded Ware stuff yet.

  11. #87
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    I guess interest in L51 and Corded Ware has waned and probably needs a new paper to reinvigorate it. No one except me seems to want to discuss the topic.

    Oh, well. In the meantime, I'll find something else to do.

  12. #88
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,924
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I guess interest in L51 and Corded Ware has waned and probably needs a new paper to reinvigorate it. No one except me seems to want to discuss the topic.

    Oh, well. In the meantime, I'll find something else to do.
    It is a little more interesting, though less civil, in the Comments on the current topic of the Eurogenes blog. On the subject of this thread:
    Screen Shot 2020-06-12 at 8.59.45 AM.png

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     GoldenHind (06-12-2020),  parasar (06-16-2020),  rms2 (06-12-2020)

  14. #89
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    It is a little more interesting, though less civil, in the Comments on the current topic of the Eurogenes blog. On the subject of this thread:
    Screen Shot 2020-06-12 at 8.59.45 AM.png
    Thanks. Good for the stuff from Davidski. As for the rest, I usually skim it, if I read it at all.

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Look at all the R1b-L51 turning up in Corded Ware, realize the limitations on y-dna resolution in ancient dna, and be a little bit patient as you also grasp the fact that those samples really are Corded Ware samples, some of them pretty old, with ~70-80% steppe dna.

    The full-on, better resolution, P312 stuff is coming. Also consider the actual reasoning, taking into account the relationship between Dutch Beaker and British Beaker, how very CW-like they both are, both genetically and culturally, and the Dutch Model of Beaker origins, which derives Beaker from Single Grave Corded Ware, particularly Protruding Foot Beaker.

    So, yeah, Generalissimo was and is right.

    I don't get the part about R1a in Beaker. Who said anything about that?

    Apparently Beaker was simply a P312-rich late Corded Ware variant.

    BTW, a couple of years ago almost everyone thought Corded Ware was a monolithic block of R1a, because that was what was turning up in Corded Ware remains, time after time.

    Right now everyone thinks Yamnaya is pretty much a solid block of R1b-Z2103, because that is what is turning up in Yamnaya remains, time after time.

    I think that too might change, but I could be wrong.
    What else do you think yamnaya and was able to transmit at significant rates?

Page 9 of 12 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R1a and Corded Ware
    By Michał in forum R1a General
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 10-11-2019, 03:52 AM
  2. Corded Ware, check yourself G25. (not for fun)
    By AlexRus in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 108
    Last Post: 05-01-2019, 10:35 AM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-25-2018, 11:02 AM
  4. R1b in Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 04-19-2016, 12:34 AM
  5. Replies: 120
    Last Post: 09-03-2015, 04:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •