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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Richard R, is there a way to see or inquire about the “transaction history” on these samples. Who and how was it decided to change the initial date estimates? Normally, I expect processes to improve so I would expect the latest transaction updates to be more correct. However, that assumes they have a quality (peer) review process. I don’t know the Reich lab data management processes. David Reich appears to be a great scientist but that does not mean he is a good manager. He should be. Do you think the Reich lab processes are lacking?
    Fernandes et al. 2020 is the only paper where that sample was published and I would put a lot more weight on it as it was a paper on Sicily. If the older date range were correct it would have been the biggest conclusion of the paper.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #1412
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    He highlights in green the Polish GAC row at the upper left.
    It's a pity he doesn't compare GAC with two major contenders, ie. with Tripolye and Funnel Beakers (not to mention he doesn't even try to compare between the Polish and Ukrainian GAC). Also, his diagram actually suggestes that the Polish CWC people are closer "23andMe/FamilyFinder cousins" to Maykop than to Polish GAC, so I wouldn't consider those results conclusive. We need a much better proof to definitely demonstrate that GAC was indeed the major donor of EEF in Early CWC.

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  5. #1413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It's a pity he doesn't compare GAC with two major contenders, ie. with Tripolye and Funnel Beakers (not to mention he doesn't even try to compare between the Polish and Ukrainian GAC). Also, his diagram actually suggestes that the Polish CWC people are closer "23andMe/FamilyFinder cousins" to Maykop than to Polish GAC, so I wouldn't consider those results conclusive. We need a much better proof to definitely demonstrate that GAC was indeed the major donor of EEF in Early CWC.
    With a lot of imagination !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    With a lot of imagination !!!
    What do you mean by that? Isn't the signal for Maykop evidently stronger than that for Poland GAC (when looking at the Poland CordedWare column)?
    Also, the signal for Russia Caucasus Yamna is surprisingly the strongest one (when compared to all remaining populations together with all other regional variants of Yamna, inclduding the Ukrainian one). Finally, how would you explain the results suggesting that the Polish Corded Ware people are more closely related to Afanasievo than to themselves?

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  8. #1415
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    Another interesting thing about Reich’s chart is Polish Corded Ware is the Corded Ware closest to the Yamnaya samples.

    The Russian Caucasus Yamnaya sample is closest to 3 CW groups (Polish, German, Czech), but there’s only 1 sample so it may not be characteristic of a typical Caucasus Yamnaya.

    Next closest Yamnaya to Polish CW are Moldovan & Ukrainian Yamnaya.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-07-2021 at 05:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    What do you mean by that? Isn't the signal for Maykop evidently stronger than that for Poland GAC (when looking at the Poland CordedWare column)?
    Also, the signal for Russia Caucasus Yamna is surprisingly the strongest one (when compared to all remaining populations together with all other regional variants of Yamna, inclduding the Ukrainian one). Finally, how would you explain the results suggesting that the Polish Corded Ware people are more closely related to Afanasievo than to themselves?
    Just saw your post. So yeah Russian Yamnaya and Maykop appear to have a genetic connection to CWC. That is interesting.

    Quote from wiki on Maykop


    The culture has been described as, at the very least, a "kurganized" local culture with strong ethnic and linguistic links to the descendants of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. It has been linked to the Lower Mikhaylovka group and Kemi Oba culture, and more distantly, to the Globular Amphora and Corded Ware cultures, if only in an economic sense. Yet, according to Mallory,

    Such a theory, it must be emphasized, is highly speculative and controversial although there is a recognition that this culture may be a product of at least two traditions: the local steppe tradition embraced in the Novosvobodna culture and foreign elements from south of the Caucasus which can be charted through importsin both regions.
    Also interesting that this recent map in the “The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context”
    Nordqvist & Heyd paper starts out in Maykop territory before making its way to SE Poland.

    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-07-2021 at 06:11 PM.
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    Somebody mentioned their unpublished DNA indicated CWC and Bell Beaker came from Yamnaya. Did they find L51 and R1a in Yamnaya?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Somebody mentioned their unpublished DNA indicated CWC and Bell Beaker came from Yamnaya. Did they find L51 and R1a in Yamnaya?
    There is a sample R1a in Kvalynsk ( first quarter of the 4th millennium). That is not very far in distance and in time from the Yamnaya Samara cluster. And obviously we have R1a samples in Mesolithic pontic steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    There is a sample R1a in Kvalynsk ( first quarter of the 4th millennium). That is not very far in distance and in time from the Yamnaya Samara cluster. And obviously we have R1a samples in Mesolithic pontic steppe.
    I0433, Y-DNA R1a>M459(*?; xM198, xYP1301>YP1272, xYP1301>FT386000), mtDNA U5a1i, Khvalynsk II Grave 1, SVP HB 46 (ca. 4697-4539 calBCE). Age 30-35, positioned on his back with raised knees, with a copper ring and a copper bead. His R1a1 haplotype shows that this haplotype was present in the region, although it is not represented later in high-status Yamnaya graves.
    * The sample has 8 derived, 1 ancestral (Y214, 1x T->A) Y-SNP calls for M459, and no calls for YP1301, so it could be pre-M459, M459*, or within the YP1301* branch.



    It seems it is older than 4th millennium. IMHO it came to the Volga region from the Sredni Stog culture ( likely from the Kalmius/Don subgroup)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Just saw your post. So yeah Russian Yamnaya and Maykop appear to have a genetic connection to CWC. That is interesting.

    Quote from wiki on Maykop



    Also interesting that this recent map in the “The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context”
    Nordqvist & Heyd paper starts out in Maykop territory before making its way to SE Poland.

    That arrows from the Maykop region are only indicative. Corded Ware is not from Maykop

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