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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

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    Wow. Thanks, guys. I didn't see the deleted post, which is probably a good thing.

    When I argue a point here and try to make my case about something, I may not always put it the best way, but I'm just giving my opinions. I'm not saying I know for sure or even know much of anything at all. I am also more than willing to change my mind when new information comes along that indicates a change of mind is warranted.

    I have a great deal of respect for Michał and most everyone else. When Michał posts something, I definitely read it and think, "Hmmm. He could be right. He knows what he's talking about." This time I disagree, but he still might be right, and I might be wrong.

    I post so much here because this is one of my favorite subjects, I believe it concerns my own Y-chromosome ancestors, and it's just fun.

    Sorry if I occasionally offend someone.

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    It might be interesting to take up the question of the origin of Corded Ware. I wonder if we should start up a brand new thread on that subject, since this one is already so ponderously long and is really more about the spread of R1b-L51 into Europe west of the steppe by means of Corded Ware and not specifically about how Corded Ware itself came into being.

    Unfortunately, I am working today. I am on a brief break right now, but I won't have much time until work is done later this afternoon.

    Anyway, right now, as things currently stand, I think that "Yamnaya DNA" in Corded Ware really is Yamnaya DNA and indicates that Corded Ware people had Yamnaya ancestors. I could be wrong about that, of course, but it had to be a people who were very closely related to Yamnaya, anyway.

    Apparently Nordqvist and Heyd agree with me, at least based on what it says on the recent map on page 20 of their archaeological paper, "The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context", in the box where it mentions the "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares [sic] 3000-2900 BC".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    This is what I wrote on this subject more than 5 years ago (and I don't know any new data that would make me change my mind):
    Interesting but I 'm quite stunned that talking about origins of CWC you do not mention ( I'm not referring to the old post when obviously we were not aware of this) the R1a Z93 in Galvanesti 3500/3000 BC potentially providing a link between the westernmost steppe (Usatovo) and Fatyanovo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Interesting but I 'm quite stunned that talking about origins of CWC you do not mention ( I'm not referring to the old post when obviously we were not aware of this) the R1a Z93 in Galvanesti 3500/3000 BC potentially providing a link between the westernmost steppe (Usatovo) and Fatyanovo.
    Finding Z93 in the Usatovo culture individuals not only in Romania (Glavanesti) but also, if trusting the information provided by Davidski, in Ukraine (Usatovo itself) and Bulgaria (Durankulak), makes the Yamna origin of Corded Ware even less likely than it was 5 years ago. Since Usatovo is dated to about 3500-3000 BC (as a post-TC culture strongly influenced by the steppe people) and Yamna started expanding in the North-Pontic region only about 3300 BC while moving west (or south-west) of Ukraine only about 2900 BC, it shows that Z93 derives from an earlier non-Yamna (or pre-Yamna) steppe population. Therefore, I agree with Davidski who wrote that "Corded Ware and Usatovo people, or at least males, probably did derive from the same Eneolithic steppe population".

    Of course it would be absurd to think that Usatovo was a Proto-CWC population. If Proto-CWC was dominated by Z93 (which seems to be the case for Usatovo), we should expect this clade to be common in nearly all migrating CWC subgroupings, not just in Fatyanovo. Also, L151 is not significantly younger than Z93 (in fact, it seems to be a bit older) and the same is true for Z283, so one should expect the Proto-CWC population to have included a significant number of both Z283 and L151 (not to mention some minor R1a and R1b subclades associated with CWC, like CTS4385, V1636, etc.).

    Most likely, the pre-Yamna steppe population ancestral to CWC and Usatovo lived somewhere in Central Ukraine, probably not far from the Middle Dnieper region. Since Z93 was present in Usatovo and did not take part in the CWC expansion directed towards north-west (ie. towards the Baltic states, Fennoscandia, Poland, Germany and further west/south-west), it seems likely that this particular clade was common among the southernmost and/or south-westernmost steppe groupings within the original pre-Proto-CWC population. Once the Yamna expansion of the Repin-related Z2103-rich population started, the ancestors of CWC were likely pushed further north (which separated them from their Z93-rich relatives from Usatovo who could have been pushed further west and south-west at about the same time), so they left the steppe zone for good, trying then to adapt to new conditions and developing a new cultural package characteristic for CWC.
    Last edited by Michał; 02-19-2021 at 07:17 PM.

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    Of course, arguments from so-called authorities aren't that great, but here are a couple of quotes from the recent Nordqvist and Heyd archaeological paper, "The Forgotten Child of the Wider Corded Ware Family: Russian Fatyanovo Culture in Context”.

    From page 1:


    Fatyanovo Culture is formed by the reverse movement to the (north-)east of the Corded Ware Complex, itself established in the aftermath of the westbound spread of Yamnaya populations from the steppes.
    From page 19:


    The CWC undoubtedly received its formation incentive from the initial westward migrations of Yamnaya populations from the Caspian-Pontic steppe.
    Here's the map from page 20 of the same paper. Note the box that says "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares [sic] c. 3000-2900 BC",

    Map_Nordqvist and Heyd_p.20 Transformation of Yamnaya to CW.jpg

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    Personally, I think it was the interaction of Yamnaya, Tripolye, GAC, and late TRB that produced Corded Ware, probably originally in NW Ukraine, East Slovakia, and SE Poland, especially Małopolska.

    Conservative estimates of the early stages of Yamnaya say 3300 BC, Mallory says 3600 BC, and in places Anthony says 3400 BC. Linderholm places the CWC-X Horizon and the initial formation of Corded Ware at 3000-2900 BC, and most conservative dates for Corded Ware place its formation around 2900-2800 BC. That's plenty of time for the transformation of what we see in Yamnaya into what we see in Corded Ware, especially when we recall that there was a lot of variety in Yamnaya. It wasn't all one, precise, monolithic thing.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-19-2021 at 07:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    Finding Z93 in the Usatovo culture individuals not only in Romania (Glavanesti) but also, if trusting the information provided by Davidski, in Ukraine (Usatovo itself) and Bulgaria (Durankulak), makes the Yamna origin of Corded Ware even less likely than it was 5 years ago. Since Usatovo is dated to about 3500-3000 BC (as a post-TC culture strongly influenced by the steppe people) and Yamna started expanding in the North-Pontic region only about 3300 BC while moving west (or south-west) of Ukraine only about 2900 BC, it shows that Z93 derives from an earlier non-Yamna (or pre-Yamna) steppe population. Therefore, I agree with Davidski who wrote that "Corded Ware and Usatovo people, or at least males, probably did derive from the same Eneolithic steppe population".

    Of course it would be absurd to think that Usatovo was a Proto-CWC population. If Proto-CWC was dominated by Z93 (which seems to be the case for Usatovo), we should expect this clade to be common in nearly all migrating CWC subgroupings, not just in Fatyanovo. Also, L151 is not significantly younger than Z93 (in fact, it seems to be a bit older) and the same is true for Z283, so one should expect the Proto-CWC population to have included a significant number of both Z283 and L151 (not to mention some minor R1a and R1b subclades associated with CWC, like CTS4385, V1636, etc.).

    Most likely, the pre-Yamna steppe population ancestral to CWC and Usatovo lived somewhere in Central Ukraine, probably not far from the Middle Dnieper region. Since Z93 was present in Usatovo and did not take part in the CWC expansion directed towards north-west (ie. towards the Baltic states, Fennoscandia, Poland, Germany and further west/south-west), it seems likely that this particular clade was common among the southernmost and/or south-westernmost steppe groupings within the original pre-Proto-CWC population. Once the Yamna expansion of the Repin-related Z2103-rich population started, the ancestors of CWC were likely pushed further north (which separated them from their Z93-rich relatives from Usatovo who could have been pushed further west and south-west at about the same time), so they left the steppe zone for good, trying then to adapt to new conditions and developing a new cultural package characteristic for CWC.
    Overall I agree with what you said expecially the importance of the steppe west of Dneper for the expansion of the groups that went further west in Europe. The problem is that so far we have a Dereivka sample that doesn't look ancestral to the EBA steppe profile typical of Yamnaya and CWC. It has too much GAC ( 42%) and too low Progress (30%). The EBA steppe profile comes out with a dramatic drop of EEF and a proportionate rise in Progress while the original PIE cluster ( Ukraine HG ) remains fixed at around 25/30%. For your theory to be true however we are still short in finding a reservoir of R1a in central western Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Here's the map from page 20 of the same paper. Note the box that says "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares [sic] c. 3000-2900 BC",

    Map_Nordqvist and Heyd_p.20 Transformation of Yamnaya to CW.jpg
    It is worth noticing that while the Yamna movement west/south-west of Ukraine produced many hundreds (if not thousands) of typical Yamna kurgans in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, there is not a single Yamna kurgan associated with the putative simultaneous movement of Yamna people in Poland, Belarus, Baltic states or Germany. The same applies of course to the so-called Yamna package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It is worth noticing that while the Yamna movement west/south-west of Ukraine produced many hundreds (if not thousands) of typical Yamna kurgans in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Hungary, there is not a single Yamna kurgan associated with the putative simultaneous movement of Yamna people in Poland, Belarus, Baltic states or Germany. The same applies of course to the so-called Yamna package.
    But apparently there are burials at Hubinek in Małopolska, Poland, dated to 3000-2900 BC, that mark the transition from Yamnaya-style burials to those of Corded Ware.

    This is from the recent Linderholm et al paper, Supplementary Information, pages 2-3:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna Linderholm

    At the same time, the possibility that steppe communities dispersed into Małopolska regions was indicated - starting from the turn of the fourth and third millennium BCE. This phenomenon, called the "CWC-X horizon" [10, 13, 14], would precede the rather static formalisation of the CWC barrow ritual, i.e. the A horizon. Until recently, this was only a theoretical idea. Recently, this has been confirmed with the discovery of graves with skeletons coloured with ochre in burials at site 2 in Hubinek, dated to 3000-2900 BCE [15]: supplement; see also [16]. The barrow burials of the older phase of the CWC - both from Małopolska and from other regions of Europe - have not been the subject of archaeogenetic research so far.

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    I think we really need to establish what we mean by "Yamnaya".

    What steppe pastoralist culture was there other than Yamnaya, around the same time, that could have contributed the autosomal DNA to Corded Ware that is usually characterized as Yamnaya DNA?

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