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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by corner View Post
    I2416 is positive for P310 and FGC11381, a SNP in our DF27>ZZ12 subclade's large phylogenetically equivalent SNP block. That block of dozens of SNPs formed 4300 ybp +/- a big margin of error (YFull). The block was founded around the time of the Boscombe Bowman.

    All SNPs between P310 and FGC11381 are missing from I2416's .bam file. They are not negative or positive, they are missing completely. Clearly, confirmation that SNPs in the chain between L151 and FGC11381 (i.e. P312>ZZ11>DF27>ZZ12>Z46512>FGC78762>ZZ19>Z34609>Z2 571) are present is crucial for a confident identification. The FGC11381+ call is real, it's in the .bam file. Deamination can occur in ancient yDNA resulting in false C>T or G>A calls and FGC11381 is a C>T call.

    However, the slim possibility that I2416 is DF27+ can't be completely ruled out - the SNPs needed to rule it out for certain are not present in the ancient yDNA sample. A number of degraded ancient samples have incongruous SNP calls in the phylogeny that highlight clear 'false positive' results but that is not the case for I2416. If FGC11381 turns out to be too young, i.e. if future modern NGS tests split the phylogenetically equivalent block and FGC11381 is found to be in the much more recent block, then the Boscombe Bowman's FGC11381+ would have to be a false positive.
    If correct, double blimey! The Bowman could have been the source of the Iberians, rather than the other way round. Or a French Bretagne source for both, as I think rms2 was suggesting might be the case?

  2. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppo View Post
    OK, so maybe even L21 was a no call? Wikipedia says analysis of the skulls suggests the L21 Bowman with him was a relative.
    Not sure about Wikipedia (who is?), but Dr. A.P. Fitzpatrick of Wessex Archaeology, in his book, The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen, page xv, says of the Boscombe Bowmen remains that:

    The similarities in the skulls suggest that the men came from a closely related community.
    The skeleton of I2416 was nearly complete, the best preserved of the Boscombe Bowmen. The skeleton of I2417, however, was less complete. I'm not sure how much they could tell about his skull. His genome was obtained from disarticulated bone.

    Not only did I2416 and I2417 belong to two different L51 subclades, but they also belonged to different mtDNA haplogroups. I2416 was K1b1a1, and I2417 was J1c. As already mentioned, their autosomal profiles were different, as well.

    Pretty obviously, I2416 and I2417 were not closely related. They most definitely did not have the same father and/or mother, nor were they father and son.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-23-2021 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppo View Post
    If correct, double blimey! The Bowman could have been the source of the Iberians, rather than the other way round. Or a French Bretagne source for both, as I think rms2 was suggesting might be the case?
    This line of thought of "credence" for the L51 Iberian origin "myth" holds very little credence.

    You may already know that much of DF27 is NOT Iberian.
    1) The earliest DF27 ancient finds so far have been north of the Pyrenee Mountains.
    2) The haplotree country report for the Rox2 R-FGC11397 subclade is
    Ireland+N.Ireland 43
    Scotland 22
    England 18
    Sweden 12
    UK 4
    Norway 1
    Germany 1

    I don't see Spain or Portugal, not even France.

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    Re the Boscombe Bowmen skulls. (A lot of this info is stuff I was really conversant with a couple of years ago: I am having to dredge it up again, first in my memory.)

    Fitzpatrick's "closely related community" (see the quote in my last post) simply refers to the fact that the Boscombe Bowmen skulls they were able to measure had that brachycephaly fairly common among Beaker people, especially males.

    This is from page 22 of Fitzpatrick's The Amesbury Archer and the Boscombe Bowmen:

    The crania were insufficiently intact to allow measurements to be taken for the calculation of indices other than the basic cranial index, which was calculated for the three adult males whose remains were in situ. There is a range of 81.0-82.4, with a mean of 81.7 and a SD of 0.57; all fall within the brachycranial range. This corresponds with the range most frequently recorded by Brothwell in his study of Bronze Age populations (1973, Abb. 65), where he demonstrated the general shift from the preponderance of dolichocranial skulls (long-headed) in the Neolithic to brachycranial skulls in the Bronze Age.
    I doubt the general round-headedness of the Bowmen's skulls is any indication they were related beyond the fact that they were all Beaker men.

    Certainly I2416 and I2417 were not closely related at all.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-23-2021 at 08:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoppo View Post
    If correct, double blimey! The Bowman could have been the source of the Iberians, rather than the other way round. Or a French Bretagne source for both, as I think rms2 was suggesting might be the case?
    No, all I really suggested was the possibility that I2416 might have come from a line that made its way to Britain from Iberia or Bretagne, whereas it appears R1b-L21 Beaker had its source in the Lower Rhine (hence its autosomal proximity to Dutch Beaker).

    Certainly I2416, in terms of steppe DNA, looks more like those two Iberian Beaker groups (BUR2 and MAD2) than he does the rest of British Beaker. However, keep in mind that I2416, BUR2, and MAD2 all had steppe DNA, just less than the rest of British Beaker.

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    Here is something from two years ago that is well worth re-reading:

    Single Grave > Bell Beakers.

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  11. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I said I think Professor Kristiansen already knows. This video is more recent than the one you posted.
    I've watched again several of Kristiansen's presentations. He is notable in that he doesn't dance around the political (in)correct issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiansen
    (quoted from his presentations)
    Plague may thus account for the Neolithic decline, paving the way for the steppe migrations, even if much still needs to be documented. However, that does not account for the genetic dominance of steppe male lines during the 3rd millennium BC onwards.
    ...
    The authors propose patrilineal competition between lineages, leading to a global decclinein male y-haplo groups, and the later dominance of a few male lines, such as R1b and R1a for Yamnay and CW.
    ...
    The link this to the spread of a pastoral economy of strong male competition and control.
    He even says this is the "elephant in the room" and also explains this is not unique to Indo-Europeans. This has all gone on time and time again since the beginning. Young males are risk takers and often leave their homes and native regions if they are not in line for inheritance or have other resource restrictions. As they immigrate elsewhere they run into conflicts. If they are successful, they take wives with them to greener pastures. In the case of Corded Ware, they also burnt down forests to develop pastures. The first few generations of this were NOT agrarian but very much kept the pastoral economy.

    I can relate this to a documentary I recently watched on the "Indian Wars" of the late 1800's in the Great Plains of America. The original tribes in the west were not necessarily as nomadic. They were more sedentary and agrarian.

    I had not realized this but the tribes involved in these Great Plains battles were not necessarily from the Great Plains but came in and took advantage of the herds of wild (feral) mustangs left over from abandoned efforts by the Spanish. The authors believe this led to a Great Plains "horse warrior" culture. Naturally, it was male dominated and many men died off in the risky endeavors, such as raiding.

    I don't know how involved horse riding was in Europe's Early Bronze Age but horses seem to be a big leverage point.

    Surely he is smart enough to not bring up R1b unless he is talking about the L51 line, not just V1636.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-23-2021 at 11:09 PM.

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    We use the terminology given to us by authors in these papers but I think the archaeologists have not been able to see well because of their specialized perspectives. Pottery shards are long lasting and apparent in archaelogical digs, but pots are not people. Dr. Kristiansen explained this well in regards to the expanding Corded Ware cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiansen
    (quotes from presentations)
    The women were not locals... they were brought in... new migrants come in, most of these new migrants were males.
    ...
    Yamnaya had no real pottery tradition. They were mobile. All their material culture was in mats, in woven things, in things that could move and wouldn't crack up like pottery.
    ...
    Foreign women are potters and start to change the Yamnaya and Corded Ware material cultures.
    ...
    This makes us understand why archaeologist have been so wrong about migration over the last 40 or 50 years because everyone looks at pots.
    It is my opinion that Heyd's East Bell Beakers and van der Waal/Glasbergen's Dutch Bell Beakers should be renamed. They are not the early, traditional Bell Beaker cultures. They are transformative new cultures... mostly intermarriages of northern European Neolithic women with Yamnaya/Corded Ware men. They involved men leaving home and taking(ripping) women away from their homes and settling in new places. They are new cultures.
    I don't think Le Mercier sees this yet. He is looking at the tail, not the dog.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-23-2021 at 11:37 PM.

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    I've mentioned before that I also think David Reich knows there was R1b-L51 in Yamnaya, because he refers to "a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin" in places like Iberia, where that can't reasonably mean anything else but R1b-L51.

    I've posted this excerpt from Reich's book, Who We Are and How We Got Here, pages 239-240, before, but it is one example of what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Reich
    This Yamnaya expansion also cannot have been entirely friendly, as is clear from the fact that the proportion of Y chromosomes of steppe origin in both western Europe26 and India27 today is much larger than the proportion of steppe ancestry in the rest of the genome. This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.28 We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

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    Speaking of pots and people, I do think the pots support the DNA in showing how Single Grave Corded Ware in the Lower Rhine morphed into Bell Beaker.

    Look at the transformation of the AOO (All Over Ornamented) and AOC (All Over Corded) beakers that began in Single Grave Corded Ware and became Bell Beaker beakers as undecorated zones were added and widened.

    Corded Ware to Bell Beakers_transition from AOO beakers to maritime_Dutch Model.jpg

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