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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Let's try a different approach.

    I think, and have thought for about a decade, that R1b-P312 came into Western Europe from the northern side, north-central Europe, rather than up the Danube River valley or through the Mediterranean. I have wavered back and forth on this and do NOT know the ancestor.

    However, despite being included towards a northern route, let me argue from a Mediterranean Sea route perspective. Let's see if it can be disproven which would throw the L51 via Corded Ware out the door.

    As a starting point (#1), I offer that P312 laden Bell Beaker people must have been good sea navigators. They made it all over the place very quickly.

    "Recognizing that the regions where Beakers have been most frequently found are connected by seas and rivers, it may have been the case that in the period between 2500 and 1500 cal BC, navigators controlled the directional nature of the travel and exchange. Their power was based on a combination of technical skills, such as expertise in environmental navigation and possibly of shipbuilding, and ritual skills. These skills may well have been passed down through successive generations of navigators."

    "Exploring agency behind the Beaker phenomenon. The navigator’s tale", by Robert Van de Noort

    I don't have the quote, but J.P. Mallory was also emphatic that the Bell Beakers were seaworthy with their impacts as far as Sardinia.

    This doesn't sound like Corded Ware plains people. I'm leaving this aside for the sake of this argument, but I think a Corded Ware/Single Grave merger/transformation with Lower Rhine/North Sea Neolithic people may be an alternative way for L151/Steppes men to acquire seafaring skills.
    I'm pretty sure that Battle-Axe (Corded Ware) people could sail very well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    ...let me argue from a Mediterranean Sea route perspective. Let's see if it can be disproven which would throw the L51 via Corded Ware out the door.
    Center of gravity for many of the smaller P312 subclades, and L51 subclade PF7589 is along the south Baltic coast. I would more inclined to go with River skills that expand into coastal sea skills once they get to the Baltic and North Seas. But like I said in a previous post: If a trade network existed along their routes, they didn't need to have strong mariner skills, they just had to barter with or coerce the locals to get them across said body of water. e.g. Dothraki crossing the Narrow Sea.

    Amber trade routes from the Baltic in this era had to cross several bodies of water
    Baltic Amber beads were found in 3400-2400 BC pharaoh tombs in Tethys pyramid. German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann who in 1871-1890 excavated Troy in addition to other artefacts found Amber beads. Scientists established that they were made from Amber that had been brought from the Baltic Coast in 3000 BC.


    If they went along the Med or along the Danube for that matter, they didn't leave much of a foot print that's detectable today or in ancient dna for that matter. While ancient P312 dna is quite common North of the Alps and Danube, it's not much of a factor in the ancient or present day Balkan dna.

    PS: That Amber route along the Dniester and Weichsel (aka Vistula) rivers, is nicely placed to get Yamnaya dna into the Corded Ware as shown in this map link below i.e. "Transformation of Yamnaya to Corded Wares c. 3000-2900 BC" Zone in SE Poland.
    https://anthrogenica.com/attachment....8&d=1608157925
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-26-2021 at 04:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    This doesn't sound like Corded Ware plains people. I'm leaving this aside for the sake of this argument, but I think a Corded Ware/Single Grave merger/transformation with Lower Rhine/North Sea Neolithic people may be an alternative way for L151/Steppes men to acquire seafaring skills.
    The mixture Steppe Corded Ware/Singel Grave with Neolithic Funnelebeaker looks right. They evolved into Bell Beakers, in the Dutch/NW Germanic area they were connected with the Rhine, Ems, Weser and specific the Veluvian Beakers were connected via the Ijssel and Vlie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlie. The North Dutch/ Drenthe Beakers via the Hunze https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunze_(rivier) all those rivers ended in the North Sea!
    Last edited by Finn; 01-26-2021 at 08:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Battle-Axe (Corded Ware) people could sail very well.
    I would love to see information on this. Do you have a reference or two?
    I found some information on log boats in the Neolithic in this general region. Archaeologists have found a 12 meter log boat but it was only 18 inches wide. I've canoed quite a bit and that would make me nervous on open seas. On the other hand, it wouldn't be to hard to rig pontoons and as long as you could swim and keep your wits about you while you flip a canoe back over you can keep going. You can't lose your oars.

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    I'm not asking if we can argue that a northern origin for P312 (and its ancestry) outweighs a Mediterranean route. I think it does but that is just my opinion.

    I'm asking "Let's see if it (Med route) can be disproven".

    My pro-Mediterranean point #1 is that P312 laden Bell Beaker people must have been good sea navigators. They made it all over the place very quickly including to the Mediterranean.

    Pro-Med point #2 is Irish legend:
    "Goídel Glas is a Gaelic legendary figure and culture hero. According to an Irish and Scottish medieval tradition, Goídel Glas is the creator of the Goidelic languages and the eponymous ancestor of the Gaels. The tradition can be traced to the 11th-century Lebor Gabála Érenn"
    "The narrative in the Lebor Gabála Érenn is a mythological account of the origin of the Gaels as the descendants of the Scythian prince Fénius Farsaid, one of seventy-two chieftains who built the Tower of Babel. Goídel Glas was the son of Nel (son of Fénius) and Scota (daughter of a Pharaoh of Egypt).[1] Goídel Glas is credited with the creation of Gaelic (proto-Irish language) from the original seventy-two languages that arose at the time of the confusion of tongues"

    "Breogán (also spelt Breoghan, Bregon or Breachdan) is a character in the Lebor Gabála Érenn, a medieval Christian history of Ireland and the Irish (or Gaels). He is supposedly the son of Brath,[1] and is described as an ancestor of the Gaels. The Lebor Gabála purports to be an account of how the Gaels descend from Adam through the sons of Noah and how they came to Ireland."
    "... one of their leaders, Breogán, founds a city called Brigantia and builds a great tower. From the top of the tower, his son Íth glimpses Ireland. The Gaels, including some of Breogán's sons, sail to Ireland from Brigantia and agree to divide it between them"

    This outlines a potential Mediterranean route. The starting point is where Scythians are from, just north of the Black and Caspian Seas. A very seaworthy people could have come down through the straights of Bosporous towards Egypt and eventually moved on to Iberia and finally the British Isles.

    I think the legend can be disproved from a time perspective by looking at the ages of the subclades and the supposed link to the Hebrew Exodus (and Goidelic) of Egypt.

    However, I offer this point in a Brian Sykes-like (or Oppenheimer) manner. It may not be precise but oral traditions can point to some general ancient truths.

    P.S. there are a lot of folks who want this to be true.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-26-2021 at 02:42 PM.

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    BTW, I have heard there is more to come on the ancient DNA related to all of this, however, it is "complex". I doubt if that is new news except to me the Yamnaya>CWC>SGC>N/E BBC autosomal cline was fairly straightforward and simple. Perhaps there is more to it on the Y side. Don't know, may be overthinking it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    I'm not asking if we can argue that a northern origin for P312 (and its ancestry) outweighs a Mediterranean route. I think it does but that is just my opinion.

    I'm asking "Let's see if it (Med route) can be disproven".

    My pro-Mediterranean point #1 is that P312 laden Bell Beaker people must have been good sea navigators. They made it all over the place very quickly including to the Mediterranean.

    Pro-Med point #2 is Irish legend:
    "Goídel Glas is a Gaelic legendary figure and culture hero. According to an Irish and Scottish medieval tradition, Goídel Glas is the creator of the Goidelic languages and the eponymous ancestor of the Gaels. The tradition can be traced to the 11th-century Lebor Gabála Érenn"
    "The narrative in the Lebor Gabála Érenn is a mythological account of the origin of the Gaels as the descendants of the Scythian prince Fénius Farsaid, one of seventy-two chieftains who built the Tower of Babel. Goídel Glas was the son of Nel (son of Fénius) and Scota (daughter of a Pharaoh of Egypt).[1] Goídel Glas is credited with the creation of Gaelic (proto-Irish language) from the original seventy-two languages that arose at the time of the confusion of tongues"

    "Breogán (also spelt Breoghan, Bregon or Breachdan) is a character in the Lebor Gabála Érenn, a medieval Christian history of Ireland and the Irish (or Gaels). He is supposedly the son of Brath,[1] and is described as an ancestor of the Gaels. The Lebor Gabála purports to be an account of how the Gaels descend from Adam through the sons of Noah and how they came to Ireland."
    "... one of their leaders, Breogán, founds a city called Brigantia and builds a great tower. From the top of the tower, his son Íth glimpses Ireland. The Gaels, including some of Breogán's sons, sail to Ireland from Brigantia and agree to divide it between them"

    This outlines a potential Mediterranean route. The starting point is where Scythians are from, just north of the Black and Caspian Seas. A very seaworthy people could have come down through the straights of Bosporous towards Egypt and eventually moved on to Iberia and finally the British Isles.

    I think the legend can be disproved from a time perspective by looking at the ages of the subclades and the supposed link to the Hebrew Exodus (and Goidelic) of Egypt.

    However, I offer this point in a Brian Sykes-like (or Oppenheimer) manner. It may not be precise but oral traditions can point to some general ancient truths.

    P.S. there are a lot of folks who want this to be true.
    A mediterranean route for Bell Beaker is just crazy talk. But I have the feeling you just brought it up only to "shoot a penalty without the goalkeeper" as we say in Italy. That is to easily debunk it.
    The main contender for a northern route is a more diversified push that happened in a straight south-east/north west movement that cutted across Hungary- Austria Germany and Switzerland .
    But the northern route would have happened anyway. I'm just talking about the possibility of two routes. So one danubian ( perhaps taken by a minority of tribes ) and the main one further to the north
    Last edited by etrusco; 01-26-2021 at 03:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    A mediterranean route for Bell Beaker is just crazy talk. But I have the feeling you just brought it up only to "shoot a penalty without the goalkeeper" as we say in Italy. That is to easily debunk it.
    There are people who don't think it is crazy talk. How do I converse with them? Our arguments can outweigh the Med route, but the truth is there is a very thin (not populous that we can see) line from the R1b-L51's MRCA to R1b-L51>P310>L151's MRCA, where all the action really begins.

    The ancient P310* find in Mongolia is very important as it pulls an origin eastward out of Central and West Europe, I think. However, P310 people, if they were great sailors, could have made it to Iberia and by Gibraltar quite quickly - months, not centuries.
    Timing wise, the Lebor Gabála Érenn has no alignment that I can see with R1b-L51 subclades but geographically it is plausible (so far as I can see).
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-26-2021 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I like the really obvious stuff.

    Quibbling about dodgy ancient samples full of holes isn't worth the calories expended doing it.

    But thanks for the sentiment.

    Target: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOR004
    Distance: 1.5274% / 0.01527381 | R4P
    51.0 RUS_Afanasievo
    30.8 POL_Globular_Amphora
    12.0 KAZ_Mereke_MBA
    6.2 Baltic_LTU_Narva
    Does Fatyanovo share Afanasievo component with Kurgan Polish Corded Ware, like L51* L52, sample below?
    Polish Corded Ware samples W070POL dated to 3890+/-YBP and :W040; any ideas how Afanasievo like component(5300+/-YBP) got into Fatyanovo R1a-93 samples? Did the component travel via Afansievo> Andronovo-Sintashta cline?
    R-L51--PF6535 * CTS10373/PF6537/FGC39 * PF6414(H)+2 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybpinfo
    id:W070POL [PL-PK]ageinew
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-26-2021 at 04:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Center of gravity for many of the smaller P312 subclades, and L51 subclade PF7589 is along the south Baltic coast.
    We have DF99 in Italy too, I think. DF19 appears continental which leaves a wide open space for origin.

    L238 is the only subclade of P312 that I can say is clearly Baltic/North Sea. It's MRCA is 3 SNPs downstream of P312's which would give it 200-300 years to make it north into Scandinavia.

    We can't really say (strongly) U106 originated along the Baltic, can we? Our ancient DNA on U106 is quite a distance age wise from U106's true TMRCA. We have ancient U106 in Unetice, which is quite a ways to the south (of Battle Axe).

    I don't know U106 that well. Is Z18 similar to L238? They call themselves the North Sea tribe, but they are 10 SNPs downstream of U106 so that is maybe a 1000 years to find a way into Scandinavia.

    Look at the early branch of U106, R-BY30097. It is the ancestor of the massive R-Z381 subclade. Where are the R-BY30097* people? I know of only two. One is from Germany and the other Italy.

    Modern populations are HARD (edit:typo) to predict origins from.

    P312 and U106 brother R1b-P310>L151>S1194 may be the best evidence of a northern origin. I can't find anything in S1194 that is Southern European and S1194's MRCA is old, only one SNP downstream of L151's MRCA.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-26-2021 at 05:53 PM.

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