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Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    R-M269(xR-PF7562,R-L23,Z2103,L51)
    I think we are talking about - I2181 4606-4447 calBCE - as the earliest R-M269 so far. He's only a couple hundred years older than the R1b-M269>L23 MRCA.

    I2181 is at Smyadovo, Bulgaria, on the west side of the Black Sea and only about 300 km/190 mi from the Sea of Marmara.

    This doesn't really help the Corded Ware route case unless his EHG autosomal is a sign his offspring didn't get to Iberia early (edit: before 2500 BC and the supposed reflux and/or Steppes auDNA Beaker folks entrance to Iberia - with a chance to bear the P312 MRCA).
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-26-2021 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    I think we are talking about - I2181 4606-4447 calBCE - as the earliest R-M269 so far. He's only a couple hundred years older than the R1b-M269>L23 MRCA.

    I2181 is at Smyadovo, Bulgaria, on the west side of the Black Sea and only about 300 km/190 mi from the Sea of Marmara.

    This doesn't really help the Corded Ware route case unless his EHG autosomal is a sign his offspring didn't get to Iberia early.
    Iberia?

    His R1b-M269 is sign enough.

    But, once again, it depends on what one means by "early".

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    In case anyone here didn't see. An example of the "landscape" before SGV (and L51) got to the middle of Germany:

    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    Nature 25 Jan 2021 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-020-01627-4

    The Wartberg culture (WBC, 3500-2800 BCE) dates to the Late Neolithic period, a time of important demographic and cultural transformations in western Europe. We performed genome-wide analyses of 42 individuals who were interred in a WBC collective burial in Niedertiefenbach, Germany (3300-3200 cal. BCE). The results showed that the farming population of Niedertiefenbach carried a surprisingly large hunter-gatherer ancestry component (34–58%). This component was most likely introduced during the cultural transformation that led to the WBC. In addition, the Niedertiefenbach individuals exhibited a distinct human leukocyte antigen gene pool, possibly reflecting an immune response that was geared towards detecting viral infections.
    ^^Wartberg culture burials already had imported amber objects, so the amber routes were functional.

    From Wiki:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nieder...galithic_tomb)
    Finds
    Pottery
    Virtually no pottery was found.[7]

    Stone tools
    Two flint arrowheads and a scraper were found on the bottom of the tomb, and a further flint knife in layer 7. The tomb also contained some flint chippings.[7]

    Bone
    The amount of animal bone found was unusually low. There were fifteen bones and three teeth of cattle, one dog or wolf bone and two unidentified animal bones.[11] Ten dog canines, two dog mandibles and two animal bones carved to look like dog (or wolf) teeth are comparable to finds from other Wartberg tombs and might have a totemic or talismanic significance.[12] A pierced fossilised seashell was also found.

    Amber
    21 amber beads were found, virtually all of them from phase 2.[13] Amber is not locally available and was probably imported from the Baltic.

    Metal
    While poor in other finds, the tomb was remarkably rich in metal, especially copper. Six copper spirals were found, one from phase 1, the rest from phase 2.[14] They are among the earliest metal finds in that part of Europe.[15] The presence of several copper ornaments probably places phases 2 and 3 of the Niedertiefenbach tomb, but not necessarily its erection, in late Wartberg, after 3000 BC.[2]
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Iberia?
    His R1b-M269 is sign enough.
    But, once again, it depends on what one means by "early".
    I meant early enough to be in Iberia well before 2500 BC and the supposed reflux and/or Steppes auDNA Beaker folks entrance to Iberia - and therefore with a chance to bear the P312 MRCA in Iberia.

    Also having M269 at this timeframe in Bulgaria in non-Corded Ware territories and pre-Yamana non-Steppe territories before the L23 MRCA, only helps the case for an L51 Med route into Europe.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-26-2021 at 10:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    I meant early enough to be "before 2500 BC and the supposed reflux and/or Steppes auDNA Beaker folks entrance to Iberia - with a chance to bear the P312 MRCA".

    Also having M269 at this timeframe in Bulgaria in non-Corded Ware land, before the L23 MRCA, only helps the case for an L51 Med route into Europe.
    What reason is there to imagine an L51 Mediterranean route?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    I meant early enough to be "before 2500 BC and the supposed reflux and/or Steppes auDNA Beaker folks entrance to Iberia - with a chance to bear the P312 MRCA".

    Also having M269 at this timeframe in Bulgaria in non-Corded Ware land, before the L23 MRCA, only helps the case for an L51 Med route into Europe.

    There is no mediterranean route for BBC. This guy can be connected with a very early branch off of IE and IMHO possibly a pre-proto anatolian speaker

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Just a word of caution. I wasn't speaking directly to the phylogenetic analyst.
    I just think anything below R-M269 on this sample is uncertain enough to not hold much weight as evidence of anything. That's all.
    Given a few of your most recent posts, I thought "the phylogenetic analyst" was you.

    Pardon my mistake.

    I, on the other hand, was relying on an email from Iosif Lazaridis rather than on expertise I cannot claim.

    Besides that, who said RISE550 is a great sample and ought to be regarded as a sure-fire L51? Please point out who that was.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-26-2021 at 10:23 PM.

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    I cannot see any reason to imagine a Mediterranean route for L51.

    If L51 arrived in Europe west of the steppe via the Mediterranean littoral, we should be seeing the oldest L51 popping up there, in cultures of that region.

    Do we see that?

    If things change, and we start to see such things, okay, but thus far L51 is most frequent in northern Europe, not only in modern men but in ancient DNA.

    I know Jean Manco put forward her "Stelae People" idea, which featured a Mediterranean coasting route from the Pontic steppe, but it seems to me she believed that was the solution to the mistaken notion that Beaker was an out-of-Iberia phenomenon.

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    I think it is fair to say, what ever entry point Steppe Kurgan L51's+ entered into Europe they represent a very successful snp! Exciting times ahead as we get new papers. <little depressing about the violence>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I think it is fair to say, what ever entry point Steppe Kurgan L51's+ entered into Europe they represent a very successful snp! Exciting times ahead as we get new papers. <little depressing about the violence>
    Personally, I think the current evidence supports a role for R1b-L51 in the genesis of Corded Ware (the CWC-X horizon) in the NW Ukraine/E Slovakia/SE Poland area via Yamnaya.

    Single Grave Corded Ware may have been largely R1b-L51. Beaker was a SGC spin-off, was the vector of R1b-L51 in western Europe, and was especially successful.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-26-2021 at 10:52 PM.

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