Page 61 of 145 FirstFirst ... 1151596061626371111 ... LastLast
Results 601 to 610 of 1444

Thread: L51 into Europe West of the Steppe Via Corded Ware

  1. #601
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,283
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Personally, I think the current evidence supports a role for R1b-L51 in the genesis of Corded Ware (the CWC-X horizon) in the NW Ukraine/E Slovakia/SE Poland area via Yamnaya.
    I agree too but to be fair other routes are still quite viable considerations.

    I'm trying to put a nail in the coffin of a Mediterranean route but it can sound reasonable.

    Proposition: R1b-L51's main lineage thru L51>P310>L151>P312 branching into West and Central Europe followed a Mediterranean route from the Pontic region to Iberia and then the British Isles.

    Points of evidence:
    #1) The Bell Beakers and ensuing Atlantic Bronze Age P312 descendants were excellent seafaring people, able to travel from the North Sea to Sardinia. A Black Sea/Mediterranean Sea people would provide an environment for these skills.
    #2) Irish Medieval literature, the Lebor Gabála Érenn, claims the ancestors to the Gaels come from Scythia to Egypt and then on to Spain and finally Ireland.
    - I'm adding points #3 and #4.
    #3) R1b-L51's only other immediate branch besides L51>P310 is L51>PF7589. It has a number of Southern European samples today, and includes a true R-PF7589* individual from Turkey/Anatolian Peninsula.
    #4) The earliest R1b-M269 found is in Bulgaria at about 4500 BC, near the Black Sea and not too far from the Sea of Maramar. This is well before the L51 MRCA. This dumps into the Mediterranean.This is not Corded Ware territory and is not Steppes pre-Yamnaya territory.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-26-2021 at 11:03 PM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     sheepslayer (01-27-2021)

  3. #602
    Registered Users
    Posts
    474
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Lmao yeah lets just pretend the 1500 year period before Yamnaya began where we have tons of evidence of contact and migrations from the steppes into the Balkans did not happen...

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     jdean (01-27-2021)

  5. #603
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,283
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    I'm adding a fifth point, probably the most important.

    Proposition: R1b-L51's main lineage thru L51>P310>L151>P312 branching into West and Central Europe followed a Mediterranean route from the Pontic region to Iberia and then the British Isles.

    Points of evidence:
    #1) The Bell Beakers and ensuing Atlantic Bronze Age P312 descendants were excellent seafaring people, able to travel from the North Sea to Sardinia. A Black Sea/Mediterranean Sea people would provide an environment for these skills.
    #2) Irish Medieval literature, the Lebor Gabála Érenn, claims the ancestors to the Gaels come from Scythia to Egypt and then on to Spain and finally Ireland.
    #3) R1b-L51's only other immediate branch besides L51>P310 is L51>PF7589. It has a number of Southern European samples today, and includes a true R-PF7589* individual from Turkey/Anatolian Peninsula.
    #4) The earliest R1b-M269 found is in Bulgaria at about 4500 BC, near the Black Sea and not too far from the Sea of Maramar. This is well before the L51 MRCA. This dumps into the Mediterranean.This is not Corded Ware territory and is not Steppes pre-Yamnaya territory. This culture had gold ornaments.
    #5) The first Bell Beakers were probably Iberian (Le Mercier). The cultural package includes archer's wrist guard, copper daggers, palmela points, v-perforated buttons, not just bell shaped pottery. They also had occasional gold ornaments. The earliest Iberian Beakers might have only had a sliver of P312. Remember we only need the single P312 MRCA individual about 3000 BC.

    I would like nothing better than to stamp on and stamp out the L51 Mediterranean route into Western Europe. The Northern European route offers much more DNA related evidence (and the genes don't lie). However, we are talking about a thin string of Early Bronze Age MRCA individuals. That's the needle in the haystack problem. The L51>P310>L151 bread crumb SNP trail into Europe is still missing a link. It just isn't there today.

    I don't have anything else but I can't argue strongly that the L51 Mediterranean or L51 Danubian routes are not reasonable.... unless someone has something else. L51 in pre-Yamanaya? northwest in CWC? pre-CWC Kama? ???
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-27-2021 at 12:25 AM.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     sheepslayer (01-27-2021)

  7. #604
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,283
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Lmao yeah lets just pretend the 1500 year period before Yamnaya began where we have tons of evidence of contact and migrations from the steppes into the Balkans did not happen...
    This is just a general comment. We don't need "tons of evidence of contact and migrations" in reality. We only have one thin lineage of M269>L23>L51>P310>L151 that needed to get through. Meanwhile the oldest M269 that we know of is in SE Europe.

    We can laugh about it, crack jokes, get angry or just call it crazy talk. Just show me some evidence a Med route can't work or is not plausible. All we can do, it appears, is use the "outweigh" argument technique and claim more data for a northern route. I believe it but calling out crazy talk doesn't win an argument with a non-believer.... when the truth is we have a missing link.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 01-27-2021 at 12:45 AM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     sheepslayer (01-27-2021)

  9. #605
    Bronze Class Member
    Posts
    269
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Steppe thug + Farmer
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b U152 BY3958
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1a4
    mtDNA (P)
    V1

    France France Paris1 Lorraine Switzerland Italy New Caledonia
    PF7589 is under M269, not L51

  10. #606
    Registered Users
    Posts
    474
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    We don't need "tons of evidence of contact and migrations". We only need one thin lineage of M269>L23>L51>P310>L151, meanwhile the oldest M269 that we know of is in SE Europe.

    We can laugh about it, crack jokes, get angry or just call it crazy talk. Just show me some evidence. Show me some evidence a Med route can't work or is not plausible. All we can do, it appears, is use the "outweigh" argument technique and claim more data for a northern route. I believe it but calling out crazy talk doesn't win an argument with a non-believer.... when the truth is we have a missing link.
    I was specifically referring to this part of your comment btw:

    #4) The earliest R1b-M269 found is in Bulgaria at about 4500 BC, near the Black Sea and not too far from the Sea of Maramar. This is well before the L51 MRCA. This dumps into the Mediterranean.This is not Corded Ware territory and is not Steppes pre-Yamnaya territory.
    As for the rest of your comment, it takes very, very special pleading to look at the data we have and think that a mediterranean route is a plausible option. The special pleading is evidenced by that you tried to use a medieval euhemerism as a serious argument for your "case".

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     jdean (01-27-2021),  Michał (01-27-2021),  ThaYamamoto (01-27-2021)

  12. #607
    Registered Users
    Posts
    96
    Sex
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-Z30682
    mtDNA (M)
    H1j4

    United States of America
    What if we sat down together and tried to figure out exactly what makes the Mediterranean route of dispersal so implausible, thereby forming a rigorous counter-argument or two that may prove useful when we encounter people who are actually fervent about continuity-centric Beaker models. For some reason this approach seems favorable compared to squelching the conversation as soon as unpopular perspectives are discussed
    Most of my family is from Tennessee, though a few of my ancestors are from adjacent areas of North Carolina and Georgia. My paternal line is positive for Z30682, underneath J-Z7671 and Y11200.

  13. #608
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,283
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    PF7589 is under M269, not L51
    Dieu, I don't think my eyes are deceiving me. PF7589/Z2118 is a brother to P310 under L51.


    It is PF7562 that is a brother to L23 under M269.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public.../R;name=R-M269

  14. #609
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,283
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by sheepslayer View Post
    What if we sat down together and tried to figure out exactly what makes the Mediterranean route of dispersal so implausible, thereby forming a rigorous counter-argument or two that may prove useful when we encounter people who are actually fervent about continuity-centric Beaker models. For some reason this approach seems favorable compared to squelching the conversation as soon as unpopular perspectives are discussed
    Exactly. Squelching conversation or raising one's voice doesn't necessarily win people over.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     sheepslayer (01-27-2021)

  16. #610
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,283
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I was specifically referring to this part of your comment btw:



    As for the rest of your comment, it takes very, very special pleading to look at the data we have and think that a mediterranean route is a plausible option. The special pleading is evidenced by that you tried to use a medieval euhemerism as a serious argument for your "case".
    I list five points. Attacking just one does not knock the others down. It is your opinion that the Irish poems are a euhermerism.

    "Euhemerism is an approach to the interpretation of mythology in which mythological accounts are presumed to have originated from real historical events or personages".

    That's exactly what supporters of a Mediterranean/Iberian route are saying. The Irish mythical account was not based on nothing. It is just an interpretation or way to explain ancient events.

    I think the Irish poems were not based on ancient migration stories passed down from real witnesses. However, I can't prove that and there are many who think the stories hold credence. Authors like Sykes and Oppenheimer haven't helped us out on that.

Page 61 of 145 FirstFirst ... 1151596061626371111 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R1a and Corded Ware
    By Michał in forum R1a General
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 10-11-2019, 03:52 AM
  2. Corded Ware, check yourself G25. (not for fun)
    By AlexRus in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 108
    Last Post: 05-01-2019, 10:35 AM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-25-2018, 11:02 AM
  4. R1b in Corded Ware
    By rms2 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 04-19-2016, 12:34 AM
  5. Replies: 120
    Last Post: 09-03-2015, 04:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •