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Thread: First High quality genomes from the Chinese Late Neolithic and EBA

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Which ranhaer thread was this posted in?
    In fact,those were first shared in QQ and wechat groups,then someone posted in that forum,so it's not important

    http://www.ranhaer.com/forum.php?mod...extra=page%3D1

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  3. #32
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    Large number of samples is useful,it's said there are 600 thousand samples in 23mofang.So they can find some rare haplogroups,such as N-MF15077,the haplogroup separated before N-F2930 and N-F1206 separated.And N-B482,it's showed many of those samples with the surname Zheng in Henan.I have asked 23mofang the ethnic of these samples,these samples are from Han Chinese
    QQ图片20200521153637.pngQQ图片20200521153603.jpg

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sahaliyan View Post
    Xinancheng site of Shanxi(the owner of the tomb believed to be the male descendant of King Wen of Zhou):N-F1998
    I hope someone will try to corroborate this result by testing other specimens, preferably ones with dates of deposition as close in time to the actual rulers of the Zhou Dynasty as possible.

    The paternal lineage of Confucius should be the same as that of the Shang Dynasty, which immediately preceded the Zhou, and that lineage most likely should belong to one of the typically Chinese/East Asian (as opposed to Mongolian/North Asian) subclades of C2-M217 if one dares to take Chinese pedigrees as valid evidence.

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  7. #34
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    Read about the Zhou dynasty and damn are they controversial! At least the Western Zhou era, or the first third of the dynasty not counting their early period when subordinate to the Shang, appears relatively impressive altogether, but the move east turned out awfully. The Liao dynasty uniting Manchuria and adjacent regions have impressed a number of people, although the Chinese weren't initially happy with them. Their Yuan relations made sure they were properly remembered in the book Liao Shi and the Qing were fond of them also.
    Scandinavian-love structure

    recent and recently discovered Swedish, Danish and Norwegian (many 4th/5th cousins)
    recent East/North German
    Anglo-Saxon from recent rural English (Derbyshire/Staffordshire) with possible trace Danish
    1/16 Bronze Age Swedish from Finland/Karelia
    medieval Norwegian and Danish via Ireland (possibly surviving structure)
    other English and German (regions unknown)
    other NW to NE European

    closest modern Sweden2
    closest ancient Sigtuna vik84001

  8. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    I hope someone will try to corroborate this result by testing other specimens, preferably ones with dates of deposition as close in time to the actual rulers of the Zhou Dynasty as possible.

    The paternal lineage of Confucius should be the same as that of the Shang Dynasty, which immediately preceded the Zhou, and that lineage most likely should belong to one of the typically Chinese/East Asian (as opposed to Mongolian/North Asian) subclades of C2-M217 if one dares to take Chinese pedigrees as valid evidence.
    F13136 is a star-like cluster in western Zhou period,and it's upstream haplogroup F10036 is also star-like cluster in Shang period.
    There are only 6 star-like clusters in western Zhou period each make up more than 0.5% of Chinese population,N-CTS1350(subclade F1998),O-F4249,0-F1273,O-F700,C-F13136,Q-F5346
    In my opinion,CTS1350 is Zhou Taiwang,F1998 is Zhou Wenwang(King Wen of Zhou),CTS1350 make up 0.3%,F1998 make up 0.7%,total 1% Chinese males.Both CTS1350 and F1998 are star like and widely spread in northern China,also fit for the early Zhou history
    C-F13136 is the royal family of Song state,Song is the descendants of royal family of Shang dynasty(F10036),Confucius is a descendant of Song royal family,and his family is a subclade of F13136.F13136 mainly found in modern Henan and Shandong,this haplogroup is not found in south Korean,consider the location of Song state,it's understanbale
    O-F4249 is the royal family of Chen state,the ancestor of this family married the daughter of Zhou Wuwang(king Wu of Zhou,the son of King Wen of Zhou),later one branch of this family usurped the throne of Qi state(FGC23868,stonger star-like pread than F4249),one of the seven warring states.There are 0.5% F4249 in south Korea,all of them FGC23868
    F1273 separated as two branches in later Shang,one is F25545,one is MF14479,F25545 probably is the royal house of Zhao,highest in Shanxi and Hebei.MF14479 is royal house of Qin,highest in Shaanxi and Henan.Zhao and Qin are two states in warring state period,later Qin Shihuang end the warring state,founded the Qin dynasty.Near all south Korean F1273 is F25545.
    O-F700 maybe Jiang family,who are close ally of the Zhou royal family and provide Queens for Zhou Kings,one branch of Jiang family founded Qi state in Shandong,later the throne usurped by the Chen family,this haplogroup is higher in northwest China and Shandong。F700 make up more than 1% of south Korean males.
    F5346,not sure,however the royal house of Song dynasty belong to the downstream of this haplogroup,Song was conquered by the Mongols,one Azeri in YFULL also belong to this haplogroup
    Last edited by sahaliyan; 05-27-2020 at 02:30 AM.

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sahaliyan View Post
    ...
    The haplogroups' modern ethnic affilation is pretty irrelevant regarding ethnography. I am sure that there are some Mestizo-specific R1b lineages but that does not mean that those are native to Mexico for instance.
    I don't understand your obsession with Koreans. It would be rather surprising if Confucius had closer paternal descendents among Koreans even IF the estimation of his haplogroup was correct.
    Shang, thus Yin's origin is still unknown and this paper did nothing to clarify it other than with the usual Chinese jingoism that has no place in science.

  11. #37
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    Confucius could be the sownstream of F13136(MF1915,downstream of F13136),I don't estimated by the Fudan paper(in fact,the Fudan university has small number of samples,can't be compared with companies like 23mofang),rather modern distribution and the tree of F13136.In fact,there is another important haplogroup of Qufu Kong family is downstream of Q-F1626(Q-MF30796,downstream of Q-MF122571,dowstnream of Q-MF1647,downstream of Q-F1626,but the TMRCA of that haplogroup is only 700 YBP,however all the 衍圣公(Duke of Yansheng )in Ming and Qing period belong to this haplogroup.Kong Sihui(孔思晦)could be from this haplogroup,all the Dukes of Yansheng in Ming and Qing period are his descendats
    https://www.23mofang.com/new/report/...amily/all-list

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  13. #38
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    It is an interesting and fun discussion, no doubt and I hope it continues but laymen especially Chinese in this Shi-era China tend to take it differently and some papers especially from the infamous Jilin university make efforts to generate such misinformantion.
    If all the Q-M3 haplotypes are gathered from White Americans it is highly likely that they will exceed, in terms of sheer number and diversity, those of registered native Americans currently residing within the US.
    But it would be comical to suggest that the direction of transmission was from Whites to NA.

  14. #39
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    In reality,if you look at the autosomal and Y-DNA of Han people carefully,you will be found Han Chinese is a political formation rather than a genetic one.Unlike Japanese and Koreans who are close in autosomal,the Chinese are differant case.
    For example,there are both 10% of males in Hunan and Shandong are F325.But if you look carefully,many Hunan F325 are F17,TMRCA to be 6000 YBP,while F17 is very few in Shandong.Then you know,these F17 are natives to Hunan for near 6000 years.They are not Chinese immigrates from north.
    In the past,people tend to overstimated the north-south immigration after Qin dynasty(founded in 221 BC),while understimated the immigration before Qin(both north to south and south to north).In reality,from genetic data,we will find most southern Han are from pre-Qin origin

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  16. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sahaliyan View Post
    In reality,if you look at the autosomal and Y-DNA of Han people carefully,you will be found Han Chinese is a political formation rather than a genetic one.Unlike Japanese and Koreans who are close in autosomal,the Chinese are differant case.
    For example,there are both 10% of males in Hunan and Shandong are F325.But if you look carefully,many Hunan F325 are F17,TMRCA to be 6000 YBP,while F17 is very few in Shandong.Then you know,these F17 are natives to Hunan for near 6000 years.They are not Chinese immigrates from north.
    In the past,people tend to overstimated the north-south immigration after Qin dynasty(founded in 221 BC),while understimated the immigration before Qin(both north to south and south to north).In reality,from genetic data,we will find most southern Han are from pre-Qin origin
    The Qin were very a short lived dynasty, so their genetic impact was minimal to none in most of China. Of course, political impact was a different case.

    China is like a giant blender. Although you can tell north and south apart they are too mixed with each other.

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