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Thread: Old Albanian & Proto-Albanian

  1. #61
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    The Illyrian Sikulotae have been connected with the Sikani and Sikeloi of Sicily by some archaeologists/authors.

    The name of the Sikulotae has been thought to be possibly related to the Illyrian word "sika" (short sword/dagger).

    This word first appears in the works of the poet Ennius' Annals 5.540. "Illyrii restant sicis sybinisque fodentes"

    Both the Sica and Sybina (spear) mentioned by Ennius as Illyrian weapons are argued by linguists like Eric Hamp to be proto-Albanian words that have reflexes today in:

    Albanian. Thikė (knife) from proto-Albanian. *tsika
    Albanian. Thupėn (stick, spit) from proto-Albanian. *tsupina


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    From ancient Greek renderings of non-Greek Old Persian names, we come to see that letters were used to represent different phonemes than those in Greek. This is especially important to bear in mind for Proto-Albanian, Illyrian, Thracian, etc, names, as it is possible different authors approximated non-Greek phonemes with different letters, etc.

    For example, Sigma and Zeta in cases of Old Persian names often represented vastly different sounds to those in Greek. And this is just two letters. Therefore we have to be careful in taking for granted any non-Greek name that is represented. We cannot assume that the letter is faithfully representing the same phoneme as in Greek without some sort of verification methodology.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Albanian traditional tattoos recorded among Albanian tribes by Edith Durham, and symbols on the Catholic graves. Not directly linguistic, but important to Old Albanian Proto-Albanian culture



    Concerning that there are similar traditions in some groups in Dagestan. See both the tattoos and the carved tombstones. I am not saying that Albanians are from Dagestan like some trolls but in order to find the origins of this tradition someone should consider them too, along with the so called "Kurgan stelae", tattooing traditions among some "Scythians" etc.

    https://www.academia.edu/29745607/TA...WOOD_AND_FLESH

    If someone finds the origin then they should consider if it comes from Illyrians proper or another group, if proto-Albanians had this tradition or not etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Concerning that there are similar traditions in some groups in Dagestan. See both the tattoos and the carved tombstones. I am not saying that Albanians are from Dagestan like some trolls but in order to find the origins of this tradition someone should consider them too, along with the so called "Kurgan stelae", tattooing traditions among some "Scythians" etc.

    https://www.academia.edu/29745607/TA...WOOD_AND_FLESH

    If someone finds the origin then they should consider if it comes from Illyrians proper or another group, if proto-Albanians had this tradition or not etc.
    Both Illyrians and Thracians are mentioned as tattooing by ancient authors:

    "Their armor is Celtic, and they are tattooed like the rest of the Illyrians and the Miracians"

    Strabo, Geography, 7.5.4 - ca. 24 CE

    Also, the Dauni women of Italy on there steles are tattooed:



    Likewise, here is a detailed work on Thracian tattoing:

    https://www.academia.edu/15080736/Thracian_Tattoos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post

    Also, the Dauni women of Italy on there steles are tattooed:
    Interestingly, C. Norman argues there are Illyrian traces in these Dauni steles, like the headgear. There is also a clear similarity to the mysterious Nuragic "giants" statues (Nuragics were J2b-l283, so this is interesting and probably not a coincidence).




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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Concerning that there are similar traditions in some groups in Dagestan. See both the tattoos and the carved tombstones. I am not saying that Albanians are from Dagestan like some trolls but in order to find the origins of this tradition someone should consider them too, along with the so called "Kurgan stelae", tattooing traditions among some "Scythians" etc.

    https://www.academia.edu/29745607/TA...WOOD_AND_FLESH

    If someone finds the origin then they should consider if it comes from Illyrians proper or another group, if proto-Albanians had this tradition or not etc.
    These practices are more likely than not, in the case of the Albanians, a continuation of older Balkan traditions and practices. Similar traditions can also be found in other Balkan countries, take for example the Stećci tombstones spread across Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro, and Serbia. As well as the custom of tattooing among the Roman Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    These practices are more likely than not, in the case of the Albanians, a continuation of older Balkan traditions and practices. Similar traditions can also be found in other Balkan countries, take for example the Stećci tombstones spread across Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro, and Serbia. As well as the custom of tattooing among the Roman Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
    I think that Johane Derite had made a very interesting post about traditional decorative patterns of Albanian female clothing, which literally looked identical to some Illyrian motifs. I'm still not convinced of an Albanian-Illyrian connection, but such cultural traits are very hard to explain otherwise. Unless these motifs were widespread in para-Illyrian peoples like Dardanians and Moesians, who are also candidates as the ancestors of Albanians.

    Are the Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina of Morlach ancestry? Morlach Vlachs are the only likely descendants of Illyrians in the Croatian and Bosnian lands. If only we could sequence the remains of a Morlach cemetery...
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    I think that Johane Derite had made a very interesting post about traditional decorative patterns of Albanian female clothing, which literally looked identical to some Illyrian motifs. I'm still not convinced of an Albanian-Illyrian connection, but such cultural traits are very hard to explain otherwise. Unless these motifs were widespread in para-Illyrian peoples like Dardanians and Moesians, who are also candidates as the ancestors of Albanians.

    Are the Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina of Morlach ancestry? Morlach Vlachs are the only likely descendants of Illyrians in the Croatian and Bosnian lands. If only we could sequence the remains of a Morlach cemetery...
    I mean well genetically speaking we plot close to what is believed illyrian culture and our y-dna is paleo-balkanic. Dardanians are more-so a branch of the illyrians possibly just having some more thracian influence.
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
    - Edith Durham

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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    Are the Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina of Morlach ancestry? Morlach Vlachs are the only likely descendants of Illyrians in the Croatian and Bosnian lands. If only we could sequence the remains of a Morlach cemetery...
    The Roman Catholics of Bosnia and Herzegovina should for the most part be of local South Slavic ancestry. The exonym Morlach or Morlaci is rather ambiguous. It was initially used to refer to the Vlachs of Croatia and the adjacent regions but gradually was applied to the Slavic-speaking communities of the Venetian-Ottoman border from the sixteenth century onwards.

    As for their origins, I personally am not too sure if the original Morlachs were Dalmatian-speaking or if their language belonged to the Balkan Romance group. The association with other Vlach groups in the historiography makes me believe that the latter was more likely. If this was the case, then a more eastern origin should be sought, however if they were Dalmatian-speaking then a local western Balkan origin is likely.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817 (Y179831)

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS1273*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Among Arbėresh names, we find many compounds with the stem "Buzė" (lip) such as:

    Buzmiu [Mouse Lip]
    Buzėdhelpri [Fox Lip]
    Buzkuqi [Red Lip]
    etc:

    Buzėzi
    Buzėndarė
    Buzėkėpuca
    Buzėmusiēi
    Buzėdhelpri
    Buzėvogli
    Buzėqulli
    Buzėrrogjiku
    Buxuku
    Buzėpalaēi
    Buzmiu
    Buzėpalkaēi
    Buzėkorita
    Buzėpėshtima
    Buzėvjerri
    Buzkuqi
    Buzmadhi
    Buzlepuri
    Buzgadhuri [Buzėgomari]
    Buzėqėngji
    Buzėkojėndra [Buzėsheqerkė]
    Buzėviēi
    Buzėmihali
    Buzėxhulli

    These names are archaic, so we should expect proto-Albanian to have an increased likelihood of also having names with proto form of Buzė (*budz).


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