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Thread: Ashkenazi and Sub-Saharan ancestry tracing using segment matches and G25 modelling

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Regarding Masamans bar chart, not sure about the African components or what sort of Mediterranean DNA is absorbed by the 'European', but I'm so far of the belief approximately 40% of Ashkenazi Jewish origins probably trace back to the Levant, Egypt and Maghreb. I also feel the same can be said for Eastern Sephardim. For other Western Jews, it can be much higher.
    I usually say anywhere in the range of 40/60 - 60/40 "MENA" vs. "European" for Western Jews, depending on the individual and their precise background, but of course it also depends which time period you're looking at for those ancestral components. In that respect Masaman's bar graph doesn't look that far off, but I'm not sure about the details.

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  3. #32
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    Most of the ''SSA'' scored by Western Jews is very ancient and mediated through North Africa. Even when they score minor Yoruba or other type of African in G25 it's likely to have come from a Taforalt-like source instead of direct sub-saharan admixture. G25 is very fine but it still has limitations in the samples, there's only one Taforalt-like sample... I noted this because I should score minor percentages of both (Taforalt and SSA) and it got mistaken by calculators all the time (and I have good estimates with formal methods, so I know more or less what % I have of both). I've seen this happening with some Iberian peninsula people, scoring lower amounts of Taforalt than what is reasonable and scoring additional Yoruba or other West African instead. When more Ancient North African samples become available I suppose a lot if not all of the sub-saharan scored by Jews and other populations with North African admixture will disappear.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Could be, but why do you say that?
    I think at first glance, if we assume that most of the "European" is Mediterranean, this chart doesn't look terrible. But in another video, he has a chart comparing different Jewish populations, and it's a mess. I think he makes these, but I'm not sure what source data he's using.



    I like Masaman overall, but he gets a lot of things wrong. For instance, he's repeatedly overestimated the genetic contribution of Crusaders to Lebanese Christians. I'm not as familiar with most of the subjects he talks about, but if his videos on Jewish, Mediterranean, and MENA populations are any indication, then he has a lot of room for improvement.

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  7. #34
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    I've quickly played around with Taforalt in modelling out of curiosity, and I only get noise levels (0.83% on Poi's Runner, 0.4-0.6% on Vahaduo).
    Ancestry on paper: English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Croatian, Ashkenazi, Polish and Māori.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPREEEEEME View Post
    Recently did some models of myself:

    Modern (using some components from my latest model):
    DISTANCE: 2.2423
    39.4% Samaritan-Lebanese-Druze
    19.6% Greek Thessaly
    17.8% Bergamo-Lombardy-Veneto-Piedmont
    16.2% Shetlandic (interpreted as Germanic-like ancestry)
    5.4% Saharawi-Mozabite-Moroccan
    1% Japanese
    0.6% Gupta

    Bronze Age:
    DISTANCE: 2.6637
    37.4% Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
    21% NLD_BA
    12.6% Bell_Beaker_ITA
    11.4% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
    7.8% Canary_Islands_Guanche
    5.8% Baltic_LVA_BA
    2.8% IRN_Shahr_Sokhta_BA1
    1.2% JPN_Jomon
    Why do you get Japanese and Jomon?
    Is that G25 picking those populations for you or you actually chose Japanese as an ancestral component? Would it have been better to use Han Chinese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    Makes sense on the whole. It seems almost certain that there is at least a minor degree of ancient SSA embedded within the Berber ancestry common to Western Jews, and it makes sense that any population-wide SSA in Jewish populations would be ancient and embedded within other more immediate source populations. However, I'm curious about the SSA that Moorjani apparently detected in Mizrahi Jews, which would be prior to the Western Jewish diaspora and would not come through any Berber source. Have you tried running models with Iraqi Jews?
    Don't think Palestinian Christians on G25 score the same Dinka % As Palestinian Muslims.
    If I remmember correctly Palestinian Christians were recently modeled as 96% Levant_LBN_Roman.
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    Last edited by Claudio; 05-28-2020 at 02:06 PM.

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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeeprince View Post
    Why do you get Japanese and Jomon?
    Is that G25 picking those populations for you or you actually chose Japanese as an ancestral component? Would it have been better to use Han Chinese?
    I just used them both as an East Asian Proxy. Han might be better - but not sure which to choose. I always seem to get a little East Asian on G25, so I chose to use them when modelling myself.
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

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  14. #38
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    Oops, wrong thread
    Last edited by Erikl86; 06-01-2020 at 09:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    I don't think Askhenazis have East African ancestry or SSA ancestry at all besides whatever is embedded in the Taforalt which they probably got from the Berbers of NW Africa

    Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    Distance: 1.8689% / 0.01868871
    45.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    27.0 Steppe
    11.0 Levant_Natufian
    7.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    7.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.2 East_Asian
    1.0 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
    Distance: 1.6895% / 0.01689488
    42.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    26.4 Steppe
    12.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    9.8 Levant_Natufian
    6.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.8 East_Asian
    1.2 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
    Distance: 1.8511% / 0.01851105
    42.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    25.0 Steppe
    12.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    11.6 Levant_Natufian
    7.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.0 East_Asian
    1.0 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    Distance: 1.6101% / 0.01610090
    44.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    25.2 Steppe
    11.0 Levant_Natufian
    9.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    7.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    1.4 East_Asian
    0.8 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
    Distance: 1.3761% / 0.01376077
    42.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    20.4 Steppe
    14.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    13.2 Levant_Natufian
    8.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.2 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    Distance: 1.3866% / 0.01386610
    43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    26.0 Steppe
    11.6 Levant_Natufian
    9.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    7.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.2 East_Asian
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

     
    Anatolia_Barcin_C,0.114961,0.147252,-0.037335,-0.062339,-0.005847,-0.01506,-0.00094,-0.010384,-0.011249,0.025878,0.009581,0.013638,-0.014569,-0.006468,-0.009365,-0.012463,0.009909,-0.006841,-0.002765,-0.011255,0.003369,0.008656,-0.005053,-0.002048,-0.011137
    Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
    Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
    Steppe:I0231,0.122929,0.081242,0.045254,0.11725,-0.035391,0.048806,0.00188,-0.000462,-0.053381,-0.071437,0.003897,0.001649,0.001189,-0.024084,0.031216,0.019888,0.004042,-0.003674,-0.000754,0.013506,-0.003244,-0.008037,0.003204,0.015665,0.001796
    Steppe:I0357,0.126344,0.092413,0.038089,0.107883,-0.029852,0.039324,0.00564,-0.008077,-0.043768,-0.065605,-0.001137,-0.00015,-0.003568,-0.024772,0.035287,0.01896,0.00013,0.003167,-0.005279,0.004877,0.003619,0.006925,0.008504,0.012 532,-0.005269
    Steppe:I0370,0.124067,0.08632,0.049403,0.111759,-0.027697,0.044623,0.00517,-0.000462,-0.066061,-0.066516,-0.002436,-0.00015,0.000297,-0.025735,0.03868,0.013789,0.000782,-0.000127,-0.005154,0.015758,0.001622,-0.0115,0.007025,0.021328,-0.003952
    Steppe:I0429,0.130897,0.088351,0.044123,0.126617,-0.030467,0.050758,0.005875,0.003,-0.059516,-0.075992,0.000974,-0.008992,0.002081,-0.018717,0.039359,0.020949,0.004955,-0.000887,0.003897,0.022636,-0.005615,0.000495,0.020089,0.018798,-0.013651
    Steppe:I0438,0.126344,0.085304,0.042615,0.122741,-0.032929,0.048806,-0.002115,0.002077,-0.068925,-0.080548,0.00065,0.002548,-0.00892,-0.029176,0.032437,0.011668,0.002347,-0.005068,-0.006285,0.018009,-0.00025,0.001731,0.021199,0.021328,-0.007185
    Steppe:I0439,0.127482,0.096475,0.037335,0.117896,-0.017542,0.038487,0.00329,-0.006,-0.052154,-0.057587,0.001949,-0.000599,-0.007582,-0.02257,0.038273,0.016441,-0.002217,-0.004941,-0.00352,0.018634,-0.001996,0.00643,0.015529,0.02663,-0.00934
    Steppe:I0443,0.124067,0.093429,0.039975,0.108206,-0.027082,0.045459,0.003995,-0.007154,-0.052563,-0.081642,0.001299,-3e-04,0.000595,-0.016515,0.044923,0.003978,-0.014212,-0.001394,-0.003771,0.013006,0.00262,0.000247,0.003944,0.0189 18,0.002036
    East_Asian:HGDP00747,0.023903,-0.44988,0.013953,-0.059432,0.03693,0.006972,0.00752,0.005769,-0.002659,0.008747,-0.074049,-0.007194,0.011001,-0.014313,-0.011536,-0.006497,-0.001304,0.00152,0.005531,-0.007629,0.019216,-0.020526,0.003944,0.006386,-0.044667
    East_Asian:HGDP00748,0.023903,-0.44988,0.012822,-0.064923,0.034468,0.011156,-0.00376,0.000462,-0.008999,0.011116,-0.078596,-0.007044,0.009812,-0.001514,-0.012215,-0.005569,0.002868,0.001014,0.00088,-0.012881,0.024706,-0.007543,0.00419,0.003856,-0.044547
    East_Asian:HGDP00749,0.020488,-0.446833,0.014331,-0.055556,0.034776,0.014223,0.00282,-0.000462,-0.003681,0.010205,-0.073075,-0.008542,0.013528,-0.00523,-0.010586,-0.009016,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.001634,-0.00988,0.027826,-0.024112,0.005916,-0.000361,-0.046583
    East_Asian:HGDP00750,0.021626,-0.447848,0.01961,-0.058786,0.034776,0.005578,0.006345,0.006,-0.005931,0.009476,-0.070801,-0.008393,0.01219,-0.008808,-0.008822,0.002652,-0.000391,0.003294,0.00088,-0.007754,0.027452,-0.015209,0.004437,0.005302,-0.035685
    East_Asian:HGDP00751,0.022765,-0.442771,0.006788,-0.055556,0.0437,0.01255,0.000705,-0.005077,-0.008385,0.011481,-0.071289,-0.006744,0.00773,-0.00867,-0.006379,-0.007558,0.002086,0.00152,0.000754,-0.011756,0.029822,-0.019166,0.002958,-0.000482,-0.042272
    Dinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995
    Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246



    Edit:

    Palestinians in comparison with the same source samples
     
    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00690
    Distance: 2.4666% / 0.02466645
    31.0 Levant_Natufian
    25.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    19.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    3.8 Steppe
    2.4 Dinka
    0.8 Yoruba

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00689
    Distance: 3.2909% / 0.03290924
    34.2 Levant_Natufian
    31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    9.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    3.6 Steppe
    2.6 Yoruba
    0.4 Dinka

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00688
    Distance: 2.9534% / 0.02953435
    28.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    25.6 Levant_Natufian
    17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    16.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    7.8 Steppe
    2.8 Yoruba
    1.0 Dinka
    0.4 East_Asian

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00685
    Distance: 2.9052% / 0.02905172
    36.8 Levant_Natufian
    31.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    9.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    5.4 Yoruba
    1.4 Dinka

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00684
    Distance: 3.4337% / 0.03433712
    43.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    39.4 Levant_Natufian
    13.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 Steppe
    1.2 Yoruba
    1.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    0.8 Dinka

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00683
    Distance: 2.7625% / 0.02762549
    43.6 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    34.2 Levant_Natufian
    15.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    4.4 Yoruba
    1.4 Steppe
    0.8 Dinka
    0.4 East_Asian

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00679
    Distance: 3.4422% / 0.03442238
    43.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    36.4 Levant_Natufian
    16.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    2.4 Steppe
    1.4 Dinka
    0.4 Yoruba

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00677
    Distance: 2.6854% / 0.02685382
    27.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    26.2 Levant_Natufian
    22.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    16.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    4.4 Steppe
    2.8 Yoruba
    1.2 Dinka

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00676
    Distance: 2.7451% / 0.02745122
    32.6 Levant_Natufian
    23.4 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    19.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    4.2 Steppe
    1.4 Dinka
    1.4 Yoruba
    0.2 East_Asian

    Target: Palestinian:HGDP00675
    Distance: 3.3185% / 0.03318498
    52.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
    29.8 Levant_Natufian
    12.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    2.6 Dinka
    2.2 Steppe
    1.4 Yoruba
    The recent Agranat-Tamir bronze age levant paper and people’s individual GEDMATCH results seem to confirm that most Jewish groups have about 3.5% African ancestry, which I think is probably from ancient semitic trading ties with Ethiopia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Don't think Palestinian Christians on G25 score the same Dinka % As Palestinian Muslims.
    If I remmember correctly Palestinian Christians were recently modeled as 96% Levant_LBN_Roman.
    EDAE699A-FE98-4051-BE96-59BAC3B7D184.jpeg
    Where is the Levant LBN Roman component derived from?

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