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Thread: Early Bronze Age Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia - preprint

  1. #61
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    Therefore, the llyrian languages obviously represent languages that came with the early bronze age cultures of albania. They are not celtic hallstatt dialects as is already known.
    Last edited by Johane Derite; 05-30-2020 at 11:48 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    I'd suggest trying against individuals instead of averages.

    Code:
    Croatia-IronAge:HRV_IA:I3313,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.01169,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
    Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.009419,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
    Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
    Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298
    Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305,0.118376,0.126941,0.010936,-0.014212,0.017849,-0.006693,-0.001175,-0.001154,0.00225,0.022415,-0.003897,0.007343,-0.013974,0.008257,-0.010179,0.000663,-0.005476,0.004181,0.016341,-0.008254,-0.009234,0.005812,-0.007395,0.007471,0.002754
    Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239
    Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
    Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208,0.1161,0.158423,-0.017348,-0.06783,0.026774,-0.032351,-0.00282,-0.001154,0.007158,0.04319,0.003573,0.015586,-0.017096,0.006468,-0.016965,-0.02559,-0.007693,-0.000253,0.00993,-0.017133,-0.003494,0.000866,0.005053,0.00241,-0.010538
    Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215,0.120652,0.158423,-0.000754,-0.066215,0.023697,-0.023427,0.00611,-0.009,0.002659,0.041914,0.002111,0.006894,-0.01665,0.000688,-0.020087,-0.005967,0.014864,0.001014,-0.000754,-0.008254,-0.013102,0.002226,-0.001725,0.011809,-0.006466
    SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1,0.133173,0.132019,0.065996,0.049419,0.039392,0.024542,0.00893,0.008769,0.003886,-0.013668,-0.00065,-0.007343,0.008325,0.014863,-0.012486,0.005304,-0.005346,0.00228,0.002388,0.002126,-0.001497,-0.002844,0.007888,-0.006748,0.000838
    SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.065569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
    SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
    Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19,0.121791,0.126941,0.059962,0.05814,0.028928,0.023985,0.00329,0.009923,-0.003272,-0.0277,-0.003248,3e-04,0.007284,-0.001376,0.000136,0.008486,0.012647,-0.008361,0.015209,-0.002001,0.00549,0.001855,0.016762,0.002048,0.017483
    Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:MJ37,0.125205,0.128972,0.050534,0.028424,0.014772,0.010877,0.005875,-0.005538,-0.001636,-0.000364,-0.005034,-0.006594,-0.001635,0.000275,-0.00665,0.011933,0.019818,0.005574,-0.005531,0.017008,0.00262,0.000371,0.005916,0.006266,0.007903
    Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.036958,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
    Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:Scythian_HUN:DA198,0.124067,0.159438,0.025267,-0.028424,0.030467,-0.006693,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.014317,0.031345,0.000812,0.009142,-0.007136,0.00578,-0.011401,-0.017237,-0.001695,0.009882,0.001383,-0.009379,-0.012603,0.009645,-0.006286,0.006989,-0.009819
    I don't have your coordinates, but this is the distance to a fellow Albanian user.

    Distance to: D.
    0.03819516 Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
    0.04250004 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192
    0.04576255 Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769
    0.04728513 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197
    0.05020661 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300
    0.05228657 Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:Scythian_HUNA198
    0.05280019 Croatia-IronAge:HRV_IA:I3313
    0.05386127 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305
    0.05801423 Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:Scythian_HUNA195
    0.06073592 Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
    0.08513328 Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:MJ37
    0.08686383 Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
    0.10736587 SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569
    0.11432401 SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
    0.12248385 Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.13728280 SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    Interesting calculator. On Vahaduo, with scaled data:

    Single:
    Target: ZH_scaled
    Distance: 2.5654% / 0.02565372
    43.0 SlavicMigration
    33.4 Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod
    17.8 Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge
    5.8 Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge

    Distance:

    Distance to: ZH_scaled
    0.03899356 SlavicMigration:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569
    0.04132296 Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:MJ37
    0.04943264 SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
    0.05046040 Ukraine-Gothic-MigrationPeriod:UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.05413766 Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:Scythian_HUNA195
    0.06593567 SlavicMigration:HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
    0.08895227 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy305
    0.08899625 Ukraine-Moldova-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
    0.09251672 Croatia-IronAge:HRV_IA:I3313
    0.09298805 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy192
    0.09756539 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy197
    0.10016705 Moldova-IronAge:Scythian_MDA:scy300
    0.10392133 Hungary-RomaniaBorder-IronAge:Scythian_HUNA198
    0.12410441 Bulgaria-IronAge:BGR_IA:I5769
    0.14282717 Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
    0.16125915 Greek-IronAge:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208

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     vettor (06-04-2020)

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "I2a1" without specifying which branch doesn't mean anything, given that it has a tmrca of 18,400 ybp. It's like saying "R1".

    I2a1 branches were in LBK, this isn't contested. The I2a1 branches which south slavs have clearly are founder effects that correlate to slavic migrations.

    But with who or which culture can you associate the I2-CTS10228?

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Therefore, the llyrian languages obviously represent languages that came with the early bronze age cultures of albania. They are not celtic hallstatt dialects as is already known.
    Hallstatt had two spheres, the Western and the Eastern. The Western was probably Proto-Celtic/Celtic and the Eastern Illyro-Thracian, both possibly with more recent steppe, Thraco-Cimmerian influences. I think E-V13 was already split at that time, but the Northern branch stepped up big time at this LBA-EIA transition and spread within the Hallstatt cultural sphere, with a possible centre in Eastern Hallstatt. Somewhere between the Urnfield and Hallstatt the Northern branch expanded South again, mixed with the Southern one and spread big time on the Balkans. That's why more recent LBA-EIA clades of the Northern branch are so widespread in Europe today. They spread with Celts and Illyro-Thracians and it seems families and clans split at that point in time, some moved up, other down, West and East with the Iron Age wave.

    Eastern Hallstatt is really a people apart and its closest to historical Illyrians I'd say.

    Before that E1b-haplotypes might have indeed spread the most with ICC, but the expansive E-V13 came most likely from TCC, was picked up by the steppe expansion and one branch moved South early, while the other one moved into and around the Carpathian basin or stayed there in former TCC territory. This Northern Carpathian group is what I was talking about and which might have had their biggest success within Eastern Hallstatt, which did influence Celts and Western Hallstatt, but didn't replace them, like Hallstatt did with Jastorf and Proto-Germanic. So in the Iron Age I propose two cases in which the Iron Age wave did influence, also genetically, a group, but didn't replace ethnicity, language and culture completely: Eastern Hallstatt (Illyrian) -> Western Hallstatt (Celtic) -> Jastorf (Germanic). That way haplogroups, especially yDNA, were spread too, from the relative South East (Eastern Central Europe, Carpathians, Balkans) to the North West, but only a limited amount, probably mostly elite warriors, specialists, traders, artisans, especially blacksmiths, priests and the like.
    This is evident throughout Hallstatt, which had a strong Mediterranean cultural, even direct Greek influence in its elite culture.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-04-2020 at 03:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Hallstatt had two spheres, the Western and the Eastern. The Western was probably Proto-Celtic/Celtic and the Eastern Illyro-Thracian, both possibly with more recent steppe, Thraco-Cimmerian influences. I think E-V13 was already split at that time, but the Northern branch stepped up big time at this LBA-EIA transition and spread within the Hallstatt cultural sphere, with a possible centre in Eastern Hallstatt. Somewhere between the Urnfield and Hallstatt the Northern branch expanded South again, mixed with the Southern one and spread big time on the Balkans. That's why more recent LBA-EIA clades of the Northern branch are so widespread in Europe today. They spread with Celts and Illyro-Thracians and it seems families and clans split at that point in time, some moved up, other down, West and East with the Iron Age wave.

    Eastern Hallstatt is really a people apart and its closest to historical Illyrians I'd say.

    Before that E1b-haplotypes might have indeed spread the most with ICC, but the expansive E-V13 came most likely from TCC, was picked up by the steppe expansion and one branch moved South early, while the other one moved into and around the Carpathian basin or stayed there in former TCC territory. This Northern Carpathian group is what I was talking about and which might have had their biggest success within Eastern Hallstatt, which did influence Celts and Western Hallstatt, but didn't replace them, like Hallstatt did with Jastorf and Proto-Germanic. So in the Iron Age I propose two cases in which the Iron Age wave did influence, also genetically, a group, but didn't replace ethnicity, language and culture completely: Eastern Hallstatt (Illyrian) -> Western Hallstatt (Celtic) -> Jastorf (Germanic). That way haplogroups, especially yDNA, were spread too, from the relative South East (Eastern Central Europe, Carpathians, Balkans) to the North West, but only a limited amount, probably mostly elite warriors, specialists, traders, artisans, especially blacksmiths, priests and the like.
    This is evident throughout Hallstatt, which had a strong Mediterranean cultural, even direct Greek influence in its elite culture.
    Which language do you think J2b-L283 & Z2103 (which came in early bronze age), brought with them? Or are you more inclined to believe east and west iron age hallstatt replaced their language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Which language do you think J2b-L283 & Z2103 (which came in early bronze age), brought with them? Or are you more inclined to believe east and west iron age hallstatt replaced their language?
    I think they were replaced, but I'm not sure and think we need to test layer by layer, region by region with sufficient samples to come to final verdicts and even meaningful interpretations. Like we still don't even have Cernavoda samples, don't we? I think Cernavoda will be very interesting and important for the emergence of the Anatolian languages and first steppe-Balkan fusions. What else can you do but guess with so much gaps? In the case of Hallstatt the case is, at least to me, more clear cut archaeologically already. Others are not.

    Another interesting question is still where Etruscan was coming from, because one speculation might be a steppe-mixed Balkan-Pannonian culture.

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  10. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think they were replaced, but I'm not sure and think we need to test layer by layer, region by region with sufficient samples to come to final verdicts and even meaningful interpretations. Like we still don't even have Cernavoda samples, don't we? I think Cernavoda will be very interesting and important for the emergence of the Anatolian languages and first steppe-Balkan fusions. What else can you do but guess with so much gaps? In the case of Hallstatt the case is, at least to me, more clear cut archaeologically already. Others are not.

    Another interesting question is still where Etruscan was coming from, because one speculation might be a steppe-mixed Balkan-Pannonian culture.
    I agree, i would have said that J2b2 Etruscan was an anomaly but J2b2 L283 already showed up among Nuragics and that might be an indication that somehow it could be related with them. But, it's still early to say anything conclusive.

  11. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The original Y-DNA classification was an error, the sample is E-FGC44169.
    ok

    it still is not a scythian .............it is another Getae-Thracian type
    Last edited by vettor; 06-04-2020 at 06:19 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  12. #69
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    I was playing around with preogram TreeTom , found on site linked below and found this on J2b-L283

    https://indo-european.eu/2020/02/vis...-dna-in-a-map/

    2 samples in the north-caucasus , 1 in etruscan society and the dalmatian



    https://camayal.info/wa/treetom/


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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     Riverman (06-04-2020)

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    Out of curiosity, has it been determined which subclade for the J2b-L283 sample in this study?

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