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Thread: Early Bronze Age Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia - preprint

  1. #11
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    Yeah and then the I2a1 must've somehow disappeared, and then reappeared again coming from Poland and Ukraine somewhere with the notorious slavic migrations in the early middle ages.

    That would be rather odd, but who the hell knows. That's why we need a lot more samples from Balkans and surrounds to untangle these mysteries once and for all.

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  3. #12
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    "I2a1" without specifying which branch doesn't mean anything, given that it has a tmrca of 18,400 ybp. It's like saying "R1".

    I2a1 branches were in LBK, this isn't contested. The I2a1 branches which south slavs have clearly are founder effects that correlate to slavic migrations.


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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Yeah and then the I2a1 must've somehow disappeared, and then reappeared again coming from Poland and Ukraine somewhere with the notorious slavic migrations in the early middle ages.

    That would be rather odd, but who the hell knows. That's why we need a lot more samples from Balkans and surrounds to untangle these mysteries once and for all.
    Well there are some clusters under M423 found in the Balkans that could be related to the M423 that was found in these samples. For example I2a-Y13331 (Y13338) has been found in a number of Pomaks and Balkan Turks from southern Bulgaria. This group is distant to the other Y13331+ clusters that are found in other regions of Europe. There is also a L161+ Albanian, though his lineage could have arrived more recently depending on what cluster he belongs to.

    As for the majority of the M423 clusters present in the Balkans that are downstreams of CTS10228, current evidence does favour an arrival with Slavic-speakers during the Middle Ages. Though I too think that more aDNA from the Balkans in general is needed.

    The other I2a-P37 sample is M26 (L158). Could possibly be related to the M26 found in a Bell Beaker sample from Hungary, or the M26>Y3992 sample from Hungary that belonged to the Baden culture.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 05-20-2020 at 10:23 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    Yeah and then the I2a1 must've somehow disappeared, and then reappeared again coming from Poland and Ukraine somewhere with the notorious slavic migrations in the early middle ages.

    That would be rather odd, but who the hell knows. That's why we need a lot more samples from Balkans and surrounds to untangle these mysteries once and for all.
    This is I2-M26, it is the type who has descendants in north Sardinia today. In fact M26 is found throughout all modern western Europeans, and a single sample was found in LBK. It has also been found in western European Neolithic cultures, including Spain and Britain.

    EDIT: Actually I could be wrong if the nomenclature is more up to date. It could be just the generic P37.2.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 05-20-2020 at 10:18 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  9. #15
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    So we know for sure that none of these I2a1 could possibly be ancestral to the most common I2a1 in the Balkans, or it's mostly just speculative at this point? Cuz the most common one is estimated to have a much younger tmrca so logically you probably won't find it in the EBA.

  10. #16
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    This is a great discovery, truly! The variety of the I2a (I-M423, I-CTS595, I-S18331), the Indo-european R1b-Z2103, the oldest J2b2-L283 found in south-eastern Europe, all together in a necropolis in northern Serbia, dated ~ 2000 BC !!

    If i may, i have just a perplexity concerning the assumption that the parent branches of the I-CTS10228 are all* found in eastern Germany, Poland, Belarus, and western Ukraine (from at least 7000 years!!)

    Parent branches of CTS10228.jpg

    Meanwhile if we check at the Yfull tree, we notice that: starting from I-L621 till I-Y81696 (downstream of I-CTS10228) with TMRCA's extending from 3400-1550 ybp, it indicates a precise area in southwest Germany as a plausible 'original zone' where the 'parents branches of I-CTS10228 lived', so how should we explain this contradiction ?!

    pre I-Y3120.jpg

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  12. #17
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    I2a in the Balkans is a Dacian marker, Slavicized.

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  14. #18
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    Based on recent discussions on the forum, many have suggested North Balkans origin for E-V13, but it doesn't look like that at all.
    Last edited by Hawk; 05-21-2020 at 04:12 PM.

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    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Based on recent discussions on the forum, many have suggested North Balkans origin for E-V13, but it doesn't look like that at all.
    E-V13 still seems like a bit of a mystery. It definitely will show up sooner or later though among ancient Balkan remains. It certainly could have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age if not much older. It may have originally had a more Southern Balkans distribution though.

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