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Thread: Early Bronze Age Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia - preprint

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    E-V13 still seems like a bit of a mystery. It definitely will show up sooner or later though among ancient Balkan remains. It certainly could have been in the Balkans since at least the Bronze Age if not much older. It may have originally had a more Southern Balkans distribution though.
    Not really, it appeared in an Iron Age "Scythian" from Moldova, scy197 to be precise. I suspect that E-V13 could be typical of the Western shores of the Black Sea. Albanians might have originated around there.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Not really, it appeared in an Iron Age "Scythian" from Moldova, scy197 to be precise. I suspect that E-V13 could be typical of the Western shores of the Black Sea. Albanians might have originated around there.
    Someone on another forum mentioned an expansion of Cardial Pottery ware which I think is also quite feasible due to its presence in Italy. Once the Danubian civilizations collapsed, and even the Bronze Age ones, the E-V13 lineage could have spread from the western Balkans to its present location.

    E-V13 is quite low among Pontic Greeks though, so I'm not so sure an origin in Anatolia is valid. G-M406 might have a case.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Not really, it appeared in an Iron Age "Scythian" from Moldova, scy197 to be precise. I suspect that E-V13 could be typical of the Western shores of the Black Sea. Albanians might have originated around there.
    No, Albanian urhemait is around Lake Baikal.

    Dude, when you say something you need to backup your claim. There is absolutely no linguistic evidence for your claim. Shooting blind bullets like this would not help you.

    Besides that, E-V13 presence around that region gets very weaker than the rest of Balkans.

    Solid examples are E-V13 from Cardium in Spain, and the immiediate parent of E-V13 in Cardium from Croatia. It's no secret that Cardium Pottery Culture started from South Albania and Northern Greece. So, originally, the earliest E-V13 clades would be coming from around Southern Balkans indeed.

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  6. #24
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    Ave 07 is an E-V13 from the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia belonging to the Epicardial culture and dated to around 5000 BC.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    Not really, it appeared in an Iron Age "Scythian" from Moldova, scy197 to be precise. I suspect that E-V13 could be typical of the Western shores of the Black Sea. Albanians might have originated around there.
    i have different information

    scy197:
    mtDNA: U5a1a1
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

    a Getae-thracian from modern Moldova

    and these others
    scy301:
    mtDNA: U5b2a3
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2


    scy305:
    mtDNA: U5a2b
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2


    other scy samples are all females
    Last edited by vettor; 05-21-2020 at 05:52 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Ave 07 is an E-V13 from the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia belonging to the Epicardial culture and dated to around 5000 BC.
    We have no other solid explanation other than that.

    This pottery style gives its name to the main culture of the
    Mediterranean Neolithic: Cardium Pottery Culture or
    Cardial Culture, or Impressed Ware Culture, which
    eventually extended from the Adriatic sea to the Atlantic
    coasts of Portugal and south to Morocco.

    The earliest Impressed Ware sites, dating to 6400-6200
    BC, are in Epirus and Corfu. Settlements then appear in
    Albania and Dalmatia on the eastern Adriatic coast dating to between 6100 and 5900 BC.[5] The earliest date in
    Italy comes from Coppa Nevigata on the Adriatic coast
    of southern Italy, perhaps as early as 6000 cal B.C. Also
    during Su Carroppu culture in Sardinia, already in its
    early stages (low strata into Su Coloru cave, c. 6000 BC)
    early examples of cardial pottery appear.[6] Northward
    and westward all secure radiocarbon dates are identical
    to those for Iberia c. 5500 cal B.C., which indicates a
    rapid spread of Cardial and related cultures: 2,000 km
    from the gulf of Genoa to the estuary of the Mondego in
    probably no more than 100–200 years. This suggests a
    seafaring expansion by planting colonies along the coast.

    Older Neolithic cultures existed already at this time in
    eastern Greece and Crete, apparently having arrived from
    the Levant, but they appear distinct from the Cardial or
    Impressed Ware culture. The ceramic tradition in the
    central Balkans also remained distinct from that along the
    Adriatic coastline in both style and manufacturing techniques for almost 1,000 years from the 6th millennium
    BC.[8] Early Neolithic impressed pottery is found in the
    Levant, and certain parts of Anatolia, including MezraaTeleilat, and in North Africa at Tunus-Redeyef, Tunisia.
    So the first Cardial settlers in the Adriatic may have come
    directly from the Levant. Of course it might equally well
    have come directly from North Africa, and impressedpottery also appears in Egypt. Along the East Mediterranean coast Impressed Ware has been found in North
    Syria, Palestine and Lebanon.

    https://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/C...%20pottery.pdf
    I still think Cardium Pottery was dominated by G2a but with heavy influence by E-V13 parent clade.

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    i have different information

    scy197:
    mtDNA: U5a1a1
    Y-DNA: R1b1a1a2

    a Getae-thracian from modern Moldova
    The original Y-DNA classification was an error, the sample is E-FGC44169.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I2a in the Balkans is a Dacian marker, Slavicized.
    I don't think there is enough evidence to support the claim that I2a-CTS10228 or CTS10228>Y3120 were Dacian markers. Should remember that CTS10228 itself potentially came from the west into Eastern Europe based on where we find some basal clusters and aDNA.

    Of course, if these M423 samples turn out to be related to the clusters found among South Slavs and other Balkan groups, this changes everything. However, it's very unlikely that they will be related. I believe they will be L161+.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I don't think there is enough evidence to support the claim that I2a-CTS10228 or CTS10228>Y3120 were Dacian markers. Should remember that CTS10228 itself potentially came from the west into Eastern Europe based on where we find some basal clusters and aDNA.

    Of course, if these M423 samples turn out to be related to the clusters found among South Slavs and other Balkan groups, this changes everything. However, it's very unlikely that they will be related. I believe they will be L161+.
    I don't base my claim on y-full which can give you a wrong picture, rather on Nordvedt's claims. I2a2 the ancestral clade of South Slavs have the highest diversity in between the region of Romania/Ukraine. So, there is a probability.

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I2a in the Balkans is a Dacian marker, Slavicized.
    Sorry but your statement it's totally incorrect!
    Can you please explain me, how could the I2a Balkanic South Slavs had Dacian ancestry, meanwhile that there are inconfutabile genetic correspondences\kinship with west Slavs (Poles, Czechs) also with members of non-slavic non-balkanic ethinicties; Finns, Austrians, Germans, Italians etc I mean just take in consideration - regarding the Germans - the subclades under I-PH908;
    1. I2-PH908>FT16449>MF2888 - a Montenegrin from Podgorica that matches a German from Sachsen, TMRCA 1400 ybp!!
    2. I2-PH908>Z16983>A493 - a German from Niedersachsen that matches with a Bosnian, Italian, Czechs, Albanian etc TMRCA 1400 ybp!!
    3. I2-PH908>FT16449>Y99608 - a German and a Polish !!
    4. I-Y110105 in which belong a Russian a Polish and a German !!
    etc

    I mean if all the I2a Balkanic South Slavs had Dacian ancestry, how could you explain all those non-slavs far away from Transilvania, Wallachia and Moldova ...
    Actually if you see carefully at the pre I-Y3120 you will realize clearly from where those I2a 'proto-slavs' (that together with the indo-european R1a particepated at the proto-slavic ethnogenesis) came from !!

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