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Thread: Understanding the "Caucasian" component on Harappa World GEDmatch

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    H1a does not seem to be part of the early Neolithic expansion it looks like a local clade which was picked up , J2a , R2 are the ones which are driving expansion of early farming societies, that mirrors what you see in Central Asia as well.
    There is no trade network from Eastern Iran extending to Northern Europe at such early dates because farmers had not shown up this far north there yet and nor did it exist even in the BA. Trade was not a lifeline for them at all how are you surmising that? J2a/R2 were not early traders there were the first bunch of Iran_N HGs to transition to farming. There is not an early movement of Semitic people into Central Asia at all, did you even read the 2 West Asia papers which dropped?
    https://phys.org/news/2019-09-enigma...e-age-tin.html
    Bronze, an alloy of copper and tin, was already being produced in the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Aegean in the late fourth and third millennia BCE. Knowledge on its production spread quickly across wide swaths of the Old World.

    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    https://phys.org/news/2019-09-enigma...e-age-tin.html
    Bronze, an alloy of copper and tin, was already being produced in the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Aegean in the late fourth and third millennia BCE. Knowledge on its production spread quickly across wide swaths of the Old World.

    What you posted is not germane to what I was discussing. There is no trade network EVEN then with Eastern Iran with Europe at that time. That map is misleading and does not correspond to trade in the 4th/3rd Millenium, it dates to trade in the 2nd Millenium,
    ie 2000-1000 BC, which corresponds with the maritime trade settlements established between the Levant and Europe via Phoenicians.

    Using methods of the natural sciences, they examined the tin from the second millennium BCE found at archaeological sites in Israel, Turkey, and Greece. They were able to prove that this tin in the form of ingots does not come from Central Asia, as previously assumed, but from tin deposits in Europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    R2 might be some ancient population which might be dating to original 11k YBP split due to presence in big cluster in East India among lower castes. The really native Iran clades might be the J2a1 given huge presence in Iran even today and in Ancient populations like Shahr-e-Sokhte. The R2 might be some ancient lineage present along with these ones. If you look at the samples you will see Indian H1a1d2 presence in Shahar-e-Sokhte along with J2a1 which extends into IVC areas like Gujarat Punjab etc.. even today small J2a1 present among Sindh & Gujarat Patels who have big H1a1d2


    Those early sites in Baluchistan & close Neolithic Iran had the advantage of trading networks which fueled these early agriculture sites. The Trade networks being lifeline of the early Neolithic sites can be found as far as Stonehedge in England, Scotland, Med Europe etc... which is a Neolithic phenomena world wide. The J2a1 seems to be a heavy early traders and agriculturalist during these early times. The Gonur site seem to be mixed with some early movements from primtive Afroasiatic people like A, CT, BT mixing with ancient Eurasians like Q1,P & Iran J2a & Indian H1a driven by these trade networks .

    Can you mention which castes specifically when you say lower castes in East India?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    You haven't checked the small South Asian/Europe Neolithic connections. Did you see some of the Neolithic F are reclassified as H1 & H3 ? I clearly said Trade fueled this farming to more places. There are other African populations who are not semitic who seem to have contributed some Agriculture, so open up and see more widely the early horizon where there was lot more activity.
    The spread of farming practices in the Near East was not facilitated by extensive trade but by significant genetic mixing, I guess you did not read the 2 papers which dropped. Again deflecting by making statements that don't pertain to the topic at hand. There are no neolithic connections with Europe , that happens in the MLBA/LBA when Indo Iranian groups flood in, that's the only connection. Ironically the only fleeting argument can be made with UP HGs and ASI HGs but these are very distant relationships and date to at least 40-50 Kya . Thats where your H1a/H2 are coming from. H1a is completely absent in Neolithic Iranians, Eneolithic Central Asians and the Indus West Periphery pool , it shows up in the samples with elevated amounts of AASI , 1459 and the tribal like Gonur2 sample. In modern groups its maximized in SI tribal groups. I think its pretty self explanatory from there on out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The spread of farming practices in the Near East was not facilitated by extensive trade but by significant genetic mixing, I guess you did not read the 2 papers which dropped. Again deflecting by making statements that don't pertain to the topic at hand. There are no neolithic connections with Europe , that happens in the MLBA/LBA when Indo Iranian groups flood in, that's the only connection. Ironically the only fleeting argument can be made with UP HGs and ASI HGs but these are very distant relationships and date to at least 40-50 Kya . Thats where your H1a/H2 are coming from. H1a is completely absent in Neolithic Iranians, Eneolithic Central Asians and the Indus West Periphery pool , it shows up in the samples with elevated amounts of AASI , 1459 and the tribal like Gonur2 sample. In modern groups its maximized in SI tribal groups. I think its pretty self explanatory from there on out.
    Was that genetic admixture rich in Basal Eurasian DNA?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Was that genetic admixture rich in Basal Eurasian DNA?.
    Basal eurasian only gets to South Asia during neolithic era. Oldest sample with basal eurasian is found in North Africa (Iberomaurusian/Taforalt culture). It looks like it was present in Levant region way before than that because Iberomaurusian has Natufian like ancestry & Natufian's main component is basal eurasian. But Iran N and Natufian derive from different HG source, so basal eurasian must have been present in Iran/Caucaus region in pure form as well.

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    To visualize the relationships between components in these old neolithic populations, I like to refer to Chad's models. They're published on his blog site
    https://populationgenomics.blog/

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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    Basal eurasian only gets to South Asia during neolithic era. Oldest sample with basal eurasian is found in North Africa (Iberomaurusian/Taforalt culture). It looks like it was present in Levant region way before than that because Iberomaurusian has Natufian like ancestry & Natufian's main component is basal eurasian. But Iran N and Natufian derive from different HG source, so basal eurasian must have been present in Iran/Caucaus region in pure form as well.
    The reason why I mentioned it is that if farming was accompanied by a migration of people to South Asia then there would have been an influx of Basal Eurasian DNA around that time?.

  14. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    Basal eurasian only gets to South Asia during neolithic era.
    Have you found some ancient samples from South Asia we don't know about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pnb123 View Post
    Basal eurasian only gets to South Asia during neolithic era. Oldest sample with basal eurasian is found in North Africa (Iberomaurusian/Taforalt culture). It looks like it was present in Levant region way before than that because Iberomaurusian has Natufian like ancestry & Natufian's main component is basal eurasian. But Iran N and Natufian derive from different HG source, so basal eurasian must have been present in Iran/Caucaus region in pure form as well.
    Basal Eurasian is defined component - there is no Basal Eurasian population found.
    Also the way Basal Eurasian is defined - it has to be an OoA population, unless we are talking about back migration to N & E Africa.

    The sample with the highest so defined Basal is Mesolithic Hotu, then Iran_N, then the Natufians.
    "(6613% in the likely Mesolithic sample, 486% in Neolithic samples), and the Levant (448% in Epipaleolithic Natufians)"

    And oldest is in Dzudzuana.
    "we report genome-wide data from two ∼26 thousand year old individuals from Dzudzuana Cave in Georgia in the Caucasus from around the beginning of the LGM ... Dzudzuana population’s ancestry ... also had ancestry from a lineage that had separated from the great majority of non-African populations before they separated from each other, proving that such ‘Basal Eurasians’6,9 were present in West Eurasia twice as early as previously recorded"

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