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Thread: A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Hum

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Sorry if this is a newb question but if pre/proto/quasimoto-Celtic and Germanic were long-time neighbors, could Nordwestblock be a case where due to constant contact they just melded together without insinuating some sort of proto-NWB language existing independently of Celtic and Germanic?

    Its very hard to say. However, one thing I dont think a lot of people get is that the elites of bronze age Europe - going right back to beaker times and increasingly strongly through the bronze age - largely got their status and power through control of an international trade in raw materials and elite prestige goods. By the end of the early bronze age, very little in the way of weapons or tools was made of anything but metal. The elites also appear to have by 1600BC or so stamped out the use of archery to disarm the local population. So, whoever controlled the metal and manufacturing of tools and weapons had incredible power over the lives of local populations. You could say that the elites were internationalists and there may have been a constant dialect leveling among this elite class giving a lingua franca across very wide areas. Because genetics shows an aloofness from the ordinary people (lack of mixing with the pre-beaker substrate for many centuries), it is possible that the Neolithic substrate people for a long time did not speak this language and it only gradually spread down the social scale as the elite spawned a huge amount of descendants and the substrate weathered away and were outbred with very little mixing.

    IMO the Celtic shifts probably took place in the northern half of France at an early date and by 2000 and 1500BC were spread to the isles in a peaceful way via the intense contacts between southern England and northern France and between southern England and the rest of the isles. This interaction is very clear throughout the entire bronze age. I cant prove it but I think it best fits the evidence. Regardless, the exact location is not as important as recognising the fact that the elite were internationalists and often incredibly aloof from the locals they settled among. Their ability to communicate with elites elsewhere in the isles and western europe was at least as important to them as their ability to communicate with the Neolithic substrate with whom they only rarely intermarried. My belief is there was a constant process of dialect leveling across vast areas all across the bronze age so there may not actually be a single spot that can be identified as ground zero for Celtic. I believe Celtic was widespread among the elites of bronze age Europe including the isles before 1000BC, perhaps well before but I dont think anyone can ever prove any of the theories. Certainly the Celtic speakers of Ireland, Britain and Gaul appear to have had the same yDNA and much the same autosomal DNA as that which arrived with the beaker people in their respective areas. There is no of a major change and most importantly the lack of change in yDNA is significant as its invariably the people in power in ancient societies whose yDNA proliferates.

    Regarding Ligurian and Lusitanian as Celto-Italic societies that were not quite Celtic linguistically, there is a school of thought which is growing in support that Ligurian was simply some sort of Celtic subset not a different language. I was only just recently looking at Lusitanian and the theory that it is non-Celtic really turns on extremely little. There are extremely few inscriptions of any length and a hell of a lot of theories rely too much on onomastics and names of gods. If you strip it back to the bare bones of why it is theorised to be non-Celtic it is threadbare. Just one word in one inscription. Some even think than one case is misleading and all the other appearances of P are also present in P-Celtic! I think though its such an unknown that it cannot be used as safe evidence to in any way help sort out the Celtic problem

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (06-28-2020),  Helen (06-28-2020),  Jessie (06-28-2020),  JonikW (06-27-2020),  Kale (06-28-2020)

  3. #222
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    Ireland European Union
    Medieval(ish) matters #9: Do early medieval Irish texts shed light on prehistoric incest?
    HistoryExtra content director David Musgrove asks two scholars for their views on what, if anything, we can learn about attitudes of Neolithic people in Ireland (particularly about incest) from studying much later early medieval documents

    https://www.historyextra.com/period/...storic-incest/

    The Celtic question

    With regards to the question of language, Dr Cassidy has this to say:

    “Our team is very aware that Ireland has undergone radical transformation since the Neolithic. In fact, in 2016 we were the first to demonstrate a transformative population migration to the island in the Early Bronze Age (~2,200 BC). Another result in that paper challenged the outdated paradigm that Dr Boyle repeats ‘Iron Age Celtic-speaking people arrived in Ireland 500 BC’. There has never been any substantial archaeological evidence for this transition and there is also no current genetic evidence.

    “In fact, we see very strong genetic continuity between the modern Irish people and the Early Bronze Age population
    Gerard Corcoran
    R1b-DF21-S5456-S6166, H1C1

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Heber For This Useful Post:

     Helen (06-28-2020),  Jessie (06-28-2020),  JonikW (06-27-2020),  Saetro (06-28-2020)

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    Ptolemy's map is the first detailed evidence of Celtic Ireland (though there are brief hints in the 6th and 4th centuries BC. I thought I would share this fairly recent effort at making sense of it and identifying places and tribes locations. I think its a very good effort though there may be cases where I think modern placename matches and archaeological data probably should overrule a couple of their strictly geographical coordinate based interpretations. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...50770801909375

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     sheepslayer (Today)

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