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Thread: Bronze & Iron Age Britain

  1. #41
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    Does anyone know if any Uentice samples have been tested, and whether they have greater farmer ancestry?
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Does anyone know if any Uentice samples have been tested, and whether they have greater farmer ancestry?
    There have been samples published from EBA Unetice-culture in Germany and Poland I believe, and they are quite steppe-shifted (up to ~60% steppe-ancestry). Regardless, isn't Unetice too early to be relevant for this?

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  4. #43
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    “In the middle of the late Bronze Age, 3200 years ago (1200 BC), we see a further rise in farmer ancestry in southern Britain, but not in Northern Britain, which reflects about a 50% replacement”
    There is evidence of a relatively large scale disruption of cultural patterns which some scholars think may indicate an invasion (or at least a migration) into Southern Great Britain c. the 12th century BC. This disruption was felt far beyond Britain, even beyond Europe, as most of the great Near Eastern empires collapsed (or experienced severe difficulties)
    If you are looking for southern shifted samples in Central Europe around 1200 BC, remember that some of the Weltzin samples land in the Bay of Biscay on PCAs. The Tollense Battle was approximatively contemporaneus with the movements to Britain described above ( - might have triggered the migration?). Central and southern Germany (ie Tumulus or very early Urnfields) would fit the bill. They have heaps of WHG of course, but also significant amounts of Barcin.

    Target: R1b:WEZ57
    Distance: 3.5816% / 0.03581639
    44.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    41.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    14.0 WHG

    Target: R1b:WEZ53
    Distance: 5.0216% / 0.05021557
    46.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    34.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    19.4 WHG

    Target: R1b:WEZ35
    Distance: 4.5090% / 0.04509032
    41.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    37.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    21.0 WHG
    Last edited by Andour; 03-05-2021 at 05:40 PM.
    Immi uiros rios toutias rias
     
    ___ Paper trail since 1550 : 100% South Auvergne, France ___
    Distance: 1.510% : 50.0 German , 50.0 Spanish Castilla .... Distance: 1.453% : 50.4 Swiss German , 49.6 Spanish Barcelona
    Distance: 1.659% : 50.2 Scottish , 49.8 French Corsica...... Distance: 1.714% : 50.8 Italian Lombardy , 49.2 French Brittany
    Distance: 1.959% : 50.8 Irish , 49.2 Italian Tuscany ......... Distance: 2.189% : 50.8 Dutch , 49.2 Basque French

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  6. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bygdedweller View Post
    There have been samples published from EBA Unetice-culture in Germany and Poland I believe, and they are quite steppe-shifted (up to ~60% steppe-ancestry). Regardless, isn't Unetice too early to be relevant for this?
    Yes it is. I was curious as my y dna line was found in this culture.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    As it relates to how some U152 subclades may have ended up in Britain; U152>L2>Z49 subclades Z142 and S8183 have been found in Czech Bell Beaker ~2300 BC, just west of Prague. This is the same area and timeframe when the Únětice culture started
    Turns out these samples were probably found in the Únětice culture rather than Bell Beaker.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  10. #46
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    Here is some info about the Unetice site in Prague

    1317 Prague-Jinonice (“Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic)
    Contact person: Miroslav Dobeš, Petr Velemínský
    The rescue excavations at the site Jinonice – Holman’s gardening took place in 1984-1986 during the construction of the subway. A total of 29 graves were found, dated to the older phases of the Únětice culture on the basis of grave equipment (ceramic and bronze inventory) and burial ritual. The skeletal remains of 36 individuals were found in the graves, with predominance of adults between 20-40 years of age. However, the burial ground was not excavated completely. With the exception of two graves, grave goods (mainly pottery) were found in all graves...

    I7202/Grave 94: 2200–1700 BCE. Right-sided crouched burial, head towards the south. Sex: orientation – ?, anthropology – ?, DNA – M. Age: adult (20–30 years). Grave goods: two vessels (bowl, cup), flint arrowhead and bronze hair rings.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  12. #47
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    Ok, getting back to the 50% replacement in southern Britain circa 1200 BC,

    Agamemnon discussed the Urnfield culture as a possible source here
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post755261


    Essentially, the sequence I think we'll see is Tumulus as the cultural correlate for Italo-Celtic followed by Urnfield as the principal agent behind the initial spread of Celtic. Celtic's spread in particular resembles dialect-levelling... One of the unmistakable signs of dialect-levelling is the presence of a dialect continuum, and indeed Europe was by and large a huge Celtic dialect continuum during much of the Iron Age.
    This is from a previous post I made

    Ordnance Survey Iron Age map of Southern Britain here
    https://archive.org/details/IronAgeS...e/n11/mode/2up

    ...page 9
    ..."To judge from the earliest known examples of the so-called "Celtic Fields", the type of agriculture that formed it economic basis, was already being practiced in southern Britain, along with stock-farming, as far back as the eleventh century B.C...Half way through the Late Bronze Age, in the eighth and seventh centuries, the southeast and east received fresh agricultural settlers from the Late Bronze Age peoples of the continent-westerly groups of the complex of cultures distinguished by urnfields, or cremation-cemeteries-and this movement has some effect even the most distant parts of Britain and on Ireland. "
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post669441

    I also have a post about urnfield in Britain here.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post455514

    Has a link to a map I created of British Urnfield sites I could find. http://www.geomidpoint.com/?ml=53.10...=0&p=1&r=0&w=1
    It doesn’t appear that urnfield left a large archaeological impact on Britain, especially if we are talking about a 50% replacement. But if not urnfield then who? I’m not aware of another viable candidate circa 1200 BC
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 03-06-2021 at 07:41 PM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

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  14. #48
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    Not sure where the idea of a replacement c. 1200BC is coming from. AFAIK, most of the period between c. 1800BC and 1000BC is almost totally dominated by cremation. So, it would be very hard to get a handle on the pace of change across that period. Comparing samples from the beaker and immediate post-beaker era with far later ones doesnt tell us anything about the pace of change. Archaeology would not see any massive migration horizons from the continent in that era. My feeling is a gradual constant trickle is much more likely and that would effect the parts of the British Isles that were natural landfalls for traffic from the European continent like SE England most and probably only very slightly effect areas at the greatest distance like Ireland and much of Scotland.

  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Not sure where the idea of a replacement c. 1200BC is coming from. AFAIK, most of the period between c. 1800BC and 1000BC is almost totally dominated by cremation. So, it would be very hard to get a handle on the pace of change across that period. Comparing samples from the beaker and immediate post-beaker era with far later ones doesnt tell us anything about the pace of change. Archaeology would not see any massive migration horizons from the continent in that era. My feeling is a gradual constant trickle is much more likely and that would effect the parts of the British Isles that were natural landfalls for traffic from the European continent like SE England most and probably only very slightly effect areas at the greatest distance like Ireland and much of Scotland.
    From a recent talk by David Reich, rozenfeld posted about it here

    this is the relevant chart from the talk

    image_2021-03-06_190559.png

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  17. #50
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    Most of post-beaker Bronze Age archaeological record in Britain and Ireland is much easier interpreted as a constant low level flow from adjacent shores than a migration event that toppled the holders of the reigns of power. Marriages, fostering, human dowries, mercenaries, traders, craftsmen, druid type figures etc could flow constantly among the elites in a very gradual low level way with no dramatic invasions but, nevertheless, it could stack up as genetically quite significant if it went on for many many centuries and they were high enough status to make a disproportionate genetic impact. It was likely a very complex gradual mosaic of may different things. I honestly think this middle ground between anti-invasion and OTT D day landings type scenarios is likely how it happened. It fits the way that the basic pattern of dominant P312 clades seems to have not changed between 2000BC and the Romans. A model like this allows for a constant process of cultural and linguistic convergence/ dampening of any divergence to take place over almost unlimited periods of time as long as such a constant low level flow took place.



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