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Thread: Resultados de ibéricos

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    ni siquiera hace falta acercarse a la frontera para parecerse genéticamente a nosotros, ya en el centro de Francia (por ejemplo pienso en las muestras de Auvernia) existe cierto solapamiento, especialmente con catalanes y otros españoles del norte.
    La grande diferencia entre la Francia de lenga d'òc y la Iberia (o parte de ellas) es nuestro aporte norte Africano que no existe allí. Sí quitares eso las diferencias ya son relativamente pequeñas, somos todos en mayoría descendientes de antiguos pueblos del bronce/hierro del suroeste Europeo con pocas variaciones, independientemente de hablaren una lengua Indo-Europea o no. Mi mayor duda es si todos los pueblos prerromanos de Iberia tenían niveles de aporte WHG alto - como los Vascos y las muestras de Olalde - o se también hubiera aquí grupos más cercanos a nosotros no Vascos, como France_IA (ERS88 por ejemplo). Si es así, entonces nuestro aporte Romano será un poquito mayor que los de ellos. Si no, entonces es casi igual

    Edit: Eso para no hablar del aporte Vasco que hay en Iberia (no aquí en Portugal/Galicia) y Gascuña.
    Last edited by Ruderico; 06-03-2020 at 10:22 AM.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    La grande diferencia entre la Francia de lenga d'òc y la Iberia (o parte de ellas) es nuestro aporte norte Africano que no existe allí. Sí quitares eso las diferencias ya son relativamente pequeñas, somos todos en mayoría descendientes de antiguos pueblos del bronce/hierro del suroeste Europeo con pocas variaciones, independientemente de hablaren una lengua Indo-Europea o no. Mi mayor duda es si todos los pueblos prerromanos de Iberia tenían niveles de aporte WHG alto - como los Vascos y las muestras de Olalde - o se también hubiera aquí grupos más cercanos a nosotros no Vascos, como France_IA (ERS88 por ejemplo). Si es así, entonces nuestro aporte Romano será un poquito mayor que los de ellos. Si no, entonces es casi igual

    Edit: Eso para no hablar del aporte Vasco que hay en Iberia (no aquí en Portugal/Galicia) y Gascuña.
    si es cierto, aunque hay muestras catalanas que tienen 1-2% de aporte norafricano, la diferencia tambien ellos tienen algo mas de aporte de las estepas, y nosotros algo mas de aporte pre-estepico (o sea neolitico + whg)

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     Ruderico (06-03-2020)

  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    si es cierto, aunque hay muestras catalanas que tienen 1-2% de aporte norafricano, la diferencia tambien ellos tienen algo mas de aporte de las estepas, y nosotros algo mas de aporte pre-estepico (o sea neolitico + whg)
    En media si, pero ahí ya tenéis mayor superposición de individuos, en G25 es claro que algunos Catalanes y Franceses plotan muy cerca, tal vez también porque los Catalanes tienen ellos mismos alguna ascendencia medieval con orígenes en Francia. Me gustaría mucho ver un estudio de eso, pero tenia de ser algo con fine scaling como hicieron aquí y en el Reino Unido hay un par de años
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6007"

    Ruderico

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  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    En media si, pero ahí ya tenéis mayor superposición de individuos, en G25 es claro que algunos Catalanes y Franceses plotan muy cerca, tal vez también porque los Catalanes tienen ellos mismos alguna ascendencia medieval con orígenes en Francia. Me gustaría mucho ver un estudio de eso, pero tenia de ser algo con fine scaling como hicieron aquí y en el Reino Unido hay un par de años
    Ese extra "francés" y en promedio con menor aporte NA en los catalanes solo es explicable por una migración de norte a sur (el idioma sugiere esto), ya que por la costa mediterránea pasaron todo tipo de personas como judíos, fenicios, etc.

    Creo que después de la peste negra hubo un repoblamiento medieval francés en Cataluña, me parece.

    [1] "distance%=1.9178"

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  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    Ese extra "francés" y en promedio con menor aporte NA en los catalanes solo es explicable por una migración de norte a sur (el idioma sugiere esto), ya que por la costa mediterránea pasaron todo tipo de personas como judíos, fenicios, etc.

    Creo que después de la peste negra hubo un repoblamiento medieval francés en Cataluña, me parece.
    Por lo que llevo leído, desde el siglo XI llegan gente del Midi francés a punta pala. La repoblación de tierras tomadas a los musulmanes no sólo se hace con ibéricos del norte.

    Por otra parte hay como que bastantes topónimos que así lo indican.
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  9. #106
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    Pregunta:

    ¿Qué calculadora es la más fiable para saber cuánto tengo de Cazador-Recolector occidental?

    Estoy harto de ver el gráfico de Haak reproducido que da 0 pelotero a los españoles pero in poco a los del norte.

    Haak_et_al_Fig_3.png

    Dicen tomar Loschbour como referencia y en gedmatch es la tercera muestra arcaica con la comparto segmentos más grandes después del LBK de Stuttgart y el BR2 de Hungría.

    De hecho me parece que no tenemos hilo de comparación de muestras arcaicas.

    Voy a abrir uno
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 06-04-2020 at 07:11 PM.
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  10. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Pregunta:

    ¿Qué calculadora es la más fiable para saber cuánto tengo de Cazador-Recolector occidental?

    Estoy harto de ver el gráfico de Haak reproducido que da 0 pelotero a los españoles pero in poco a los del norte.

    Haak_et_al_Fig_3.png

    Dicen tomar Loschbour como referencia y en gedmatch es la tercera muestra arcaica con la comparto segmentos más grandes después del LBK de Stuttgart y el BR2 de Hungría.

    De hecho me parece que no tenemos hilo de comparación de muestras arcaicas.

    Voy a abrir uno
    ese estudio es de hace 7 años (haak et al. ) y esta ya desfasado, nose porque algunos se empeñan con ese gráfico todavia

  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Pregunta:

    ¿Qué calculadora es la más fiable para saber cuánto tengo de Cazador-Recolector occidental?

    Estoy harto de ver el gráfico de Haak reproducido que da 0 pelotero a los españoles pero in poco a los del norte.

    Haak_et_al_Fig_3.png

    Dicen tomar Loschbour como referencia y en gedmatch es la tercera muestra arcaica con la comparto segmentos más grandes después del LBK de Stuttgart y el BR2 de Hungría.

    De hecho me parece que no tenemos hilo de comparación de muestras arcaicas.

    Voy a abrir uno
    Si tienes G25 este que hizo Celtíbero es bastante popular(Scaled):

    http://*************************/ULTIM...COMPONENTS.htm

    Pero te aviso que como me ganes a WHG, me puede molestar bastante.

    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 2.6934% / 0.02693390

    55.6 Early_European_Farmer
    28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
    14.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    1.8 Iberomaurusian

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     Shadogowah (06-07-2020)

  13. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    Si tienes G25 este que hizo Celtíbero es bastante popular(Scaled):

    http://*************************/ULTIM...COMPONENTS.htm

    Pero te aviso que como me ganes a WHG, me puede molestar bastante.

    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 2.6934% / 0.02693390

    55.6 Early_European_Farmer
    28.4 Steppe_Pastoralist
    14.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    1.8 Iberomaurusian
    Descansa tranquilo, me sale un 11.8%.

    Target: Shadogowah_scaled
    Distance: 2.3090% / 0.02308996
    56.4 Early_European_Farmer
    26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
    11.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    5.2 Iberomaurusian

    Pero claro, yo soy andaluz occidental. Valle del Guadalquivir y supuestamente el epítome de maximización de EEF español en poblaciones modernas. Y ahí estoy con más de un cuarto de Steppe y rozando el 12% de cazador recolector.

    Claramente la gráfica de Haak respecto a españoles es que no hay por donde cogerla. A saber que muestras han usado.
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  15. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Descansa tranquilo, me sale un 11.8%.

    Target: Shadogowah_scaled
    Distance: 2.3090% / 0.02308996
    56.4 Early_European_Farmer
    26.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
    11.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    5.2 Iberomaurusian

    Pero claro, yo soy andaluz occidental. Valle del Guadalquivir y supuestamente el epítome de maximización de EEF español en poblaciones modernas. Y ahí estoy con más de un cuarto de Steppe y rozando el 12% de cazador recolector.

    Claramente la gráfica de Haak respecto a españoles es que no hay por donde cogerla. A saber que muestras han usado.
    Interesante compadre. Podrias intentar este modelo?

    Code:
    Neolithic_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    Neolithic_Farmer:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
    Satsurblia_Cluster:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
    Iberomaurusian:MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Western_Hunter-Gatherer:LUX_Loschbour,0.133173,0.106631,0.20176,0.192186,0.164338,0.055778,0.00611,0.036922,0.096535,0.02278,-0.020786,-0.016186,0.024975,-0.007432,0.065824,0.063643,0.008084,0.006714,-0.013324,0.065281,0.120038,0.019166,-0.059405,-0.175687,0.022992
    Western_Hunter-Gatherer:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
    Western_Hunter-Gatherer:England_Mesolithic,0.126344,0.110693,0.202891,0.197031,0.157876,0.055778,0.010575,0.03346,0.086514,0.016583,-0.017863,-0.01139,0.014866,-0.001651,0.061481,0.065499,0.002477,0.009882,-0.005531,0.06353,0.116295,0.019661,-0.055954,-0.179664,0.019399
    Jomon:JPN_Jomon,0.011003,-0.3440953,-0.0537398,0.0124893,0.038161,0.0139448,-0.0020758,-0.0015383,0.024577,0.0205622,-0.049718,-0.0068938,0.0096878,-0.0069958,-0.023819,-0.0154467,0.006454,0.0099242,0.0024722,-0.0060655,0.0639705,-0.0456895,0.0091615,0.0112062,-0.0994323
    Iran_Neolithic:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
    Iran_Neolithic:IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
    Dravidian:IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858,0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
    Steppe_Pastoralist:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    Steppe_Pastoralist:RUS_Afanasievo,0.1238692,0.0885718,0.0411719,0.1122644,-0.0310693,0.0459564,0.0025033,-0.0017458,-0.058058,-0.077284,-0.0001412,-0.000189,-0.001325,-0.020392,0.0384738,0.0086529,-0.0092743,-0.0023906,-0.0035742,0.0096623,-0.0059515,0.0015913,0.013043,0.0233243,-0.0027958
    Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer:RUS_Samara_HG,0.119514,0.048745,0.113513,0.206398,-0.008001,0.054384,-0.013161,-0.023537,-0.01309,-0.090936,0.01429,-0.018883,0.026164,-0.03647,0.020629,0.012994,-0.005867,-0.000507,-0.00729,0.009004,-0.011854,0.025102,0.009737,-0.02651,-0.009101
    Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer:RUS_Karelia_HG,0.1236877,0.0321583,0.129855,0.2101663,-0.010361,0.0571723,-0.0196627,-0.0234603,-0.002659,-0.0860153,0.0182957,-0.0184337,0.0333497,-0.039085,0.018865,0.0295237,-0.0148203,0.0031673,-0.0044413,0.012506,-0.007487,0.0169817,0.0093667,-0.021007,-0.0103383
    Natufian:Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
    Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer:SWE_Motala_HG,0.13249,0.0895696,0.1651034,0.187341,0.0864774,0.0551646,-0.00235,0.008538,0.0376324,-0.0389258,0.0016562,-0.0187034,0.0310404,-0.0173406,0.0315686,0.049297,0.005763,0.0024324,-0.006335,0.039744,0.0507604,0.014418,-0.022086,-0.0977008,0.0070412
    Rudnaya:RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
    Beringian:USA_Ancient_Beringian,0.0432525,-0.3051665,0.0873035,0.081073,-0.0887855,-0.020777,-0.1215005,-0.150686,-0.020657,-0.0218685,0.008038,-0.009816,0.0097375,-0.0141065,-0.009093,0.004508,0.002021,0.0119085,0.003017,0.0139445,-0.005927,0.0059355,0.00721,0.0040965,-0.0006585
    Siberian:RUS_Kolyma_Meso,0.043253,-0.337156,0.087492,0.045543,-0.07663,-0.02259,-0.047707,-0.050767,-0.006545,-0.024055,0.005846,-0.006145,0.017988,-0.026424,-0.021851,-0.004243,0.001173,0.012162,0.018101,0.008879,0.004118,-0.023247,0.013311,0.009158,0.009221
    Amerindian:BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP,0.050765,-0.3095332,0.1206032,0.098515,-0.1156522,-0.017626,-0.284645,-0.3400012,-0.0136212,-0.0184422,0.002241,-0.003267,0.0004162,0.017478,-0.0065688,0.0064438,0.006493,-0.001267,0.0026898,0.003727,-0.0010482,0.007963,-0.002662,-0.0043378,0.001413
    Amerindian:PER_Cuncaicha_9000BP,0.046667,-0.317861,0.117662,0.091409,-0.115714,-0.02761,-0.295643,-0.347062,-0.008385,-0.00893,-0.004222,-0.002847,0.001041,0.020781,-0.010993,0.006232,0.002217,0.0019,0.008045,0.007253,-0.002745,0.006925,-0.00037,-0.006025,-0.004311
    Amerindian:CHL_LosRieles_10900BP,0.044391,-0.304659,0.118416,0.101099,-0.111098,-0.012829,-0.291648,-0.349832,-0.010022,-0.022597,0.005359,-0.003897,-0.004014,0.018854,-0.008822,0.006895,0.008475,0.000507,0.000754,0.008004,0.001248,-0.000989,0.005916,-0.000602,-0.000958
    Sub-Saharan:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0.0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561,0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
    Por cierto, yo soy el tal Celtíbero que menciona nuestro querido mokordo. Deberia hacer mudanza de todos mis modelos aqui, ya en TA no se habla de genetica, solo sirve para trolear.

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