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Thread: Resultados de ibéricos

  1. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    No sé si es de origen bereber o no pero de cualquier manera 3600 años me parecen demasiados años para que se introduzca este tipo de haplogrupos en la peninsula ibérica y que haya sido en ese momento.
    3600 años te da un margen amplísimo para que ocurra. Máxime teniendo en cuenta que la presencia africana ya es detectada al final de la edad del hierro y en época romana.
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  2. #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    Porque la muestra Canaria que forma parte del NA , dos de las tres que forman la referencia Ibérica, (Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES,+Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE,), y las dos del "germánico" son medievales.

    Yo que sé, algún nombre tenía que ponerle...
    Creí haberle leído a Ruderico que el usar muestras guanches frente a las magrebíes para modelar el componente norteafricano ibérico precisamente trata de hurgar en una ancestralidad común más antígua. Supongo que se los puede considerar representativos de una población norteafricana aislada de influencias levantinas medievales.
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  3. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    3600 años te da un margen amplísimo para que ocurra. Máxime teniendo en cuenta que la presencia africana ya es detectada al final de la edad del hierro y en época romana.
    Tengo entendido que la mayor contribución africana en iberia es de origen medieval y que lo anterior es residual, pero a saber.

    Aunque estaría bien encontrar mapas de haplogrupos ibéricos de la edad de hierro/bronce, si no se ha encontrado todavía haplogrupos subsaharianos en esa época descartaría ese tiempo.

  4. #924
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    Tengo entendido que la mayor contribución africana en iberia es de origen medieval y que lo anterior es residual, pero a saber.

    Aunque estaría bien encontrar mapas de haplogrupos ibéricos de la edad de hierro/bronce, si no se ha encontrado todavía haplogrupos subsaharianos en esa época descartaría ese tiempo.
    Bueno, según Olalde la contribución africana era de hecho mayor durante la época romana y se reduce durante el medievo y luego todavía más con la Reconquista. Aunque supongo que lo razonable es que la que tenemos nosotros sea en su mayoría asociada a los últimos que llegaron.

    Y efectivamente no han aparecido haplogrupos Y subsaharianos en muestras antiguas (aunque creo que si tenemos mitocondriales). Si tienes los de la rama E-M215 pero no los de E-M2

    Pero esto es como buscar restos de dinosaurios, lo mismo si aparecen.
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    Inspirado hice una recolecta de información por épocas de muestras en G25, los únicos plenamente romanos que he encontrado fueron 3, aunque podrían ser en parte cartagineses como Aníbal.




    El número de muestras que datan de 500 d.C. a 800 d.C. ya permite extraer mejores conclusiones pero son post-romanos aunque con la inercia de esa etapa.

     



    Esta son las muestras más representativas de todas por número y datan de 1000 d.C. a 1600 d.C., la influencia norteafricana es prácticamente la misma que en el caso romano, no veo que haya una disminución palpable y eso se ve en el promedio. Hay claramente un flujo constante del norte de África durante esta etapa.

     



    Estas muestras del 600 d.C. a 800 d.C. y 800 d.C. a 1200 d.C. no me parecen lo suficiente representativas ya que son del nordeste e incluso tienen menos norteafricano y SSA que muchos ibéricos modernos, yo prácticamente tengo el doble.

     


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    Last edited by JJJ; 01-04-2021 at 05:17 PM.

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  8. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    Inspirado hice una recolecta de información por épocas de muestras en G25, los únicos plenamente romanos que he encontrado fueron 3, aunque podrían ser en parte cartagineses como Aníbal.




    El número de muestras que datan de 500 d.C. a 800 d.C. ya permite extraer mejores conclusiones pero son post-romanos aunque con la inercia de esa etapa.

     



    Esta son las muestras más representativas de todas por número y datan de 1000 d.C. a 1600 d.C., la influencia norteafricana es prácticamente la misma que en el caso romano, no veo que haya una disminución palpable y eso se ve en el promedio. Hay claramente un flujo constante del norte de África durante esta etapa.

     



    Estas muestras del 600 d.C. a 800 d.C. y 800 d.C. a 1200 d.C. no me parecen lo suficiente representativas ya que son del nordeste e incluso tienen menos norteafricano y SSA que muchos ibéricos modernos, yo prácticamente tengo el doble.

     


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    Resumiéndolo mucho. Siento no poder a rebuscar los datos pero los tuyos me valen.

    Hasta la edad del bronce las muestras presentan muy poca o nula herencia africana. La excepción es un señor encontrado en el yacimiento Bell Beaker en Camino de las Yeseras. Olalde lo considera un ejemplo de que había contactos esporádicos con la otra orilla y que este señor fue adoptado por la tribu.

    La influencia norteafricana comienza a penetrar durante la edad del hierro y se deja en el aire si es la actividad fenicia (y luego cartaginesa) es uno de los principales vectores.

    F1.large.jpg

    Se afirma que el flujo africano es constante ya en el periodo romano y es cuando esta alcanza un cenit principalmente en el Sureste de la península. Creo que los "campeones" hasta el momento son muestras tomadas no recuerdo si en Jaén o Granada y datadas unos pocos de siglos después de Cristo.

    Algunas muestras medievales de cementerios musulmanes tienen una mayor herencia africana pero otras tienen mucha menos. Creo que son estas que traes. Como ves los perfiles son heterogéneos y es muchos casos es fácil apuntar quien era bereber o medio bereber, quien parece más bien árabe y quienes tienen un perfil mucho más cercano a un español moderno. Como puedes ver hay mucho menos Yoruba, menos Taforalt y el Yamnaya es más alto: Ya durante el periodo musulman y a pesar de entrada de población bereber durante la conquista, la población es "menos africana" que la de unos cuantos siglos antes.

    Por otra parte y sin ánimo de entrar en polémicas, creo recordar que hay muestras de un cementerio musulmán de no recuerdo que provincia catalana y eran más o menos parecidas a las de Granada o puede que de hecho estén incluidas en las que has traído. Pero conforme avanza la reconquista da la impresión de que la Corona de Aragón fue bastante más bestia haciendo limpieza étnica que el resto de reinos peninsulares. Por ahí hay una historia de normandos al servicio de los condes de Barcelona que pone los pelos de punta de lo bestias que fueron.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Pero tiene matches guineanos y senegaleses también medievales y relativamente recientes. Pudiera ser de ascendencia colonial guineana (o de hecho un guineano nacionalizado o hijo de inmigrantes)

    Si tu haplogrupo es medieval y de origen bereber y asumiendo que gracias a mucha más gente testada llegamos a ver como aparecen diferentes nodos que llevan desde el par de mutaciones de las que cuelgas ahora (que tienen 4000 años) hasta un nodo terminal mucho más reciente, se debería de ir apreciando como la procedencia de las muestras se desplaza al Magreb y a la península ibérica y digo yo que tus matches más próximos y por lo tanto cercanos en el tiempo deberían ser marroquíes, argelinos y españoles, como el tipo ese de Almería que aparece en YFull. En un clado paralelo 300 años después ya tienes un marroquí.
    El tránsito de los almorávides subsaharianos por el Magreb fue muy rápido, llegando de Mauritania a la península en menos de una generación en muchos casos. Por eso es posible que algunos no dejasen descendencia por el camino. Hay que tener en cuenta que fueron precisamente los almoravides los que desplazaron hacia el sur a los subsaharianos por eso los antiguos Mauritanos están en la misma rama de los sene-gambianos modernos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibericus View Post
    El tránsito de los almorávides subsaharianos por el Magreb fue muy rápido, llegando de Mauritania a la península en menos de una generación en muchos casos. Por eso es posible que algunos no dejasen descendencia por el camino. Hay que tener en cuenta que fueron precisamente los almoravides los que desplazaron hacia el sur a los subsaharianos por eso los antiguos Mauritanos están en la misma rama de los sene-gambianos modernos.
    Me parece un poco raro que salten directamente de un sitio a otro sin dejar descendencia por el camino (tengamos presente que no tiene que ser el mismo individuo, que efectivamente puede haberse hecho todo el camino desde Tombuctú a Córdoba, sino el nieto espabilado del primo que se quedó en el pueblo que puso una tienda en Marrakech). Como digo, en otras ramas donde han encontrado mutaciones compartidas más recientes, se aprecia el patrón que comento, pero bueno, cualquiera sabe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Me parece un poco raro que salten directamente de un sitio a otro sin dejar descendencia por el camino (tengamos presente que no tiene que ser el mismo individuo, que efectivamente puede haberse hecho todo el camino desde Tombuctú a Córdoba, sino el nieto espabilado del primo que se quedó en el pueblo que puso una tienda en Marrakech). Como digo, en otras ramas donde han encontrado mutaciones compartidas más recientes, se aprecia el patrón que comento, pero bueno, cualquiera sabe.
    Bueno técnicamente es posible que algunos saliesen de Mauritania en 1050 y llegasen a la península en 1086. Pero sí que es cierto que llegarían ya mayores... Imagínate vaya shock para los ibéricos de la época ver aquellos señores negros.

    Supongo que es más probable que muchos E-M2 se instalasen en la zona de Marruecos y luego sus descendientes heredasen el oficio militar de sus padres y entrasen a la península.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibericus View Post
    Bueno técnicamente es posible que algunos saliesen de Mauritania en 1050 y llegasen a la península en 1086. Pero sí que es cierto que llegarían ya mayores... Imagínate vaya shock para los ibéricos de la época ver aquellos señores negros.

    Supongo que es más probable que muchos E-M2 se instalasen en la zona de Marruecos y luego sus descendientes heredasen el oficio militar de sus padres y entrasen a la península.
    Esto es a lo que me refería, pero desde mucho antes incluso. Que tienes ahí 4000 años de margen aunque no tengo ni idea desde cuando hay caravanas cruzando el Sahara.

    Que si puede ser que a lo mejor todos los españoles con esos haplogrupos desciendan de patriarcas subsaharianos asociados a la cultura almorávide, pero me parece a mi que desde la hipotética cuna originaria en el África ecuatorial occidental (que también habría que tener cuidado con los heat maps), en 3000 años ha dado bastante tiempo para que se hayan desparramado por el norte de África (aún asumiendo que alguno no hubiera cruzado el mar ya en época romana y se hubiera plantado aquí mil años antes del periodo musulmán) y a lo mejor el señor almorávide que llega en el año 1000 con ese haplogrupo es de Tánger de toda la vida.

    Y esto es lo que veo en algunas ramas con mutaciones datadas en época más moderna, que junto al español dando la nota colorista en un árbol netamente africano, aparecen cerca de él marroquíes y argelinos.
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