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Thread: Ancient genome-wide DNA from France - Rivollat et al., 2020

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    Ancient genome-wide DNA from France - Rivollat et al., 2020

    The article which Rozenfeld reported today (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344) explores ancient DNA from Mesolithic and Neolithic France but also includes data from Spain and other locations east and north.

    What strikes me as puzzling is found in S1 5 "Y chromosome data" where the authors note, "Overall, H2 (SMH) and G2a2 (HBS) are the predominant Y-haplogroups carried by the majority of Anatolian and related early European (8, 136), which seem to replace local Y chromosome haplogroup profiles (I, C, and R) ...

    It is my understanding that haplogroup R (of any variety) is not found in Europe until the Bronze Age (circa 2500 BC at the earliest). The "old" view of say 2005 was the R-M269 was included in the Iberian Refugium during Pleistocene time (Ice Ages). This has been entirely replaced with the view that R-M269 and varieties never saw Europe until their "intrusion" from the steepes in the Bronze Age. So "whats up"?

    This reminds me of the Lipson et al., 2017 paper where they note a haplogroup dated to circa 5294 / 5066 BC from Iberia (El Trocs site) which is 3000 years before R1b was supposedly first entered Europe via the Iron Gates of the Danube. So how does one explain the presence of R1b1a2 (haplogroup assignment of the El Trocs sample) so early? Rivollat (work supervised by Lalueza-Fox, Haak and Reich) implies that R was in Europe from at least the Mesolithic.


    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...14488.full.pdf.
    Last edited by falconson1; 05-30-2020 at 03:53 AM.

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    ? There's loads of R in mesolithic Europe, just not of the ever popular today M269 variety.
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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    The article which Rozenfeld reported today (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/22/eaaz5344) explores ancient DNA from Mesolithic and Neolithic France but also includes data from Spain and other locations east and north.

    What strikes me as puzzling is found in S1 5 "Y chromosome data" where the authors note, "Overall, H2 (SMH) and G2a2 (HBS) are the predominant Y-haplogroups carried by the majority of Anatolian and related early European (8, 136), which seem to replace local Y chromosome haplogroup profiles (I, C, and R) ...

    It is my understanding that haplogroup R (of any variety) is not found in Europe until the Bronze Age (circa 2500 BC at the earliest). The "old" view of say 2005 was the R-M269 was included in the Iberian Refugium during Pleistocene time (Ice Ages). This has been entirely replaced with the view that R-M269 and varieties never saw Europe until their "intrusion" from the steepes in the Bronze Age. So "whats up"?

    This reminds me of the Lipson et al., 2017 paper where they note a haplogroup dated to circa 5294 / 5066 BC from Iberia (El Trocs site) which is 300 years before R1b was supposedly first entered Europe via the Iron Gates of the Danube. So how does one explain the presence of R1b1a2 (haplogroup assignment of the El Trocs sample) so early? Rivollat (work supervised by Lalueza-Fox, Haak and Reich) implies that R was in Europe from at least the Mesolithic.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...14488.full.pdf.
    R1b has been recorded in Upper Paleolithic Italy (Villabruna, 12230-11830 calBCE), while R1a has been recorded in Mesolithic Karelia.

    Both of these sites are within Europe, and it's very likely that R1a and R1b originated within the generally defined borders of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    ? There's loads of R in mesolithic Europe, just not of the ever popular today M269 variety.
    I see some Y-DNA J in 10,000-7,000 years ago Southern France in one of the maps in the Supplement. They may have that wrong though if the J is from one of the Iboussieres samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I see some Y-DNA J in 10,000-7,000 years ago Southern France in one of the maps in the Supplement. They may have that wrong though if the J is from one of the Iboussieres samples.
    Which map? That would be quite cool, hopefully it's not just the Iboussieres mistake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    ? There's loads of R in mesolithic Europe, just not of the ever popular today M269 variety.
    R1b1a2 is M269 is it not? This is the progenitor or all the major R1b lineages in Europe. So did it originate in Europe or the West Asian steepes? I was laughed at (by members here) for asserting years ago that M269 hunkered down in the Iberian Refugium. I had reversed course after 2005 and found the "origin in West Asia" to be most persuasive. Now with ancient DNA - I am confused.

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    Longhand 'R1b1a9r0r39j209j34' changes too much, I think it used to be but now it's not? Better to use the terminal snp. R1b-M269 = Copper/Bronze age Eastern Europe, R1b in general, again probably Eastern Europe close to 20kbp.
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    Els Trocs was R1b-V88, which of course is L389-.

    We all sat up and paid attention when Villabruna's results were published. He was R1b-L754, but all the other men in his cluster belonged to y-haplogroup I. If Villabruna was of great significance for European R1b, one would expect that his descendants, or the descendants of men like him, would be popping up in ancient sites and ancient dna test results all over central and western Europe in all subsequent time periods and displaying the proper succession of SNPs. But that is not what has happened. The line leading from R1b-L754 to R1b-M269, never mind R1b-L51, is conspicuous by its absence until it begins showing up in the third millennium BC. It's not in central and western Europe in Mesolithic results. It's not in central and western Europe in Neolithic results.

    When it does finally appear, it is accompanied by steppe dna and is found in cultures thought to have been derived from the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    R1b1a2 is M269 is it not? . . .
    Not now it's not. That's the old longhand version of R1b-M269. Last I heard (and things may have changed) R1b1a2 is currently the longhand for R1b-V88, which of course is L389-. Its line parted company with the line leading to M269 over 16,000 years ago.

    V88 does make the occasional rare appearance in Neolithic Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Which map? That would be quite cool, hopefully it's not just the Iboussieres mistake.
    https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...aaz5344_SM.pdf

    Figure S13. Times series and distribution of Y chromosome haplogroups in prehistoric
    European individuals from 14,000 to 3,000 years cal BCE.

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