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Thread: [split] Armenians: Origins & Steppe Admix?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    The Steppe ancestry in South Caucasus was introduced at MBA almost certainly from Catacomb culture. There is solid evidence that Prisulak culture in Daguestan was an offshoot of Catacomb.
    And they move to South creating Trialeti Vanadzor culture and Urmia culture in NW Iran.

    This Urmia culture in NW Iran coincides exactly in time and space with apparition of Gutians. Occam razor says that Z2103 initially was introduced there by Gutians. Later some Hurrians could have assimilated Gutians but this do not mean that Hurrians natively had a Steppe ancestry.
    The Bronze Age Hajji Firuz sample which is speculated to be Gutian by some is genetically closest to Dagestani people. Do you think it's also a good representation of what the BA Trialeti-Vanadzor people would be like autosomally?

    Hajji Firuz.png
    Last edited by Korotyr; 05-31-2020 at 10:24 AM.

  2. #22
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    Korotyr

    Let's forget about such a useless ( useless from linguistic point of view ) concept as a similarity of ancient sample to modern people. It says virtually nothing about the language of ancient sample. I can show numerous such examples.

    As for Trialeti Vanadzor. Yes I think should we have a sample from an early TVC kurgan it might score some unusually high steppe ancestry. Not as much as Hajji Firuz BA. But probably more than median MBA samples we have.
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Korotyr

    Let's forget about such a useless ( useless from linguistic point of view ) concept as a similarity of ancient sample to modern people. It says virtually nothing about the language of ancient sample. I can show numerous such examples.

    As for Trialeti Vanadzor. Yes I think should we have a sample from an early TVC kurgan it might score some unusually high steppe ancestry. Not as much as Hajji Firuz BA. But probably more than median MBA samples we have.
    I'm not talking from a linguistic point of view. I just find the similarity interesting, and all in all it goes nice with the theory of Trialeti being connected with Gutians.
    Modern Northeast Caucasians can be modeled with three main components - KAC, Steppe (bulk of it being Catacomb-derived) and East Asian. Since Trialeti culture was established in KAC lands, it wouldn't be surprising to see Trialeti being very much akin to modern Dagestani people autosomally.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korotyr View Post
    I'm not talking from a linguistic point of view. I just find the similarity interesting, and all in all it goes nice with the theory of Trialeti being connected with Gutians.
    Modern Northeast Caucasians can be modeled with three main components - KAC, Steppe (bulk of it being Catacomb-derived) and East Asian. Since Trialeti culture was established in KAC lands, it wouldn't be surprising to see Trialeti being very much akin to modern Dagestani people autosomally.
    Isn't the Kotias Klde sample part of the Trialeti culture?

  6. #25
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    So, is Y-DNA J1 related with Bronze Age Zagrosi movement of people. How does this correlate with Proto-Semitic people?

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Isn't the Kotias Klde sample part of the Trialeti culture?
    There are two "Trialeti" cultures, one is Trialetian UP - Mesolithic, the other Trialeti Bronze Age. I think Kotias Klde is Imeretian culture.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialetian_Mesolithic
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialeti_culture


    Trialeti.jpg

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  9. #27
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    Byzantine Empire Empire of Trebizond Greek Macedonia Greece
    Armenians are more kura-araxes rather maykop. Georgians, Laz, Colchian-Kartvelian are more Maykop.
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.5780% / 0.01578004
    40.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    32.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    16.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 2.8082% / 0.02808208
    67.2 Greek_Trabzon
    24.2 Samaritan
    7.4 Georgian_Imer
    1.2 Sardinian

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NarLFC View Post
    Did you not see the averages? Armenians clearly show the highest genetic affinity to Trabzonians and Eastern Turks. Eastern Armenians are also closer to Laz and Kurds than they are to Assyrians? Why do you keep emphasizing Assyrians when they are not the closest genetic relatives to Armenians and vice versa? Iran_N is similar to CHG so I don't see how that plays a role. Levant_N admixture in Armenians is also barely higher than it is in Trabzonians. It isn't nearly enough to "shift" them to the Levant. Catacomb has a bit of EEF, NOT CHG but it's mostly comprised of Steppe. Yamnaya Samara is the definition of Steppe component in peer reviewed studies, not Karelia. So if you want to run steppe, you may as well use Yamnaya samples.

    And no dude, the two kits I posted is used as academic samples for Armenians on G25/Vahaduo which is totally off the Armenian average HENCE WHY I POSTED IT. It skews the average. They are absolute outliers and differ significantly to the rest of the kits. Also, how would Armenians have Levantine input when Levantines are geographically irrelevant to the Armenian Highlands? Especially when historically it is Levantines that have received more Northern admixture components. Geography much?

    I'll leave this here for you again in case you still haven't registered it yet.

    Euro_k15(c("Armenian_East"),k=30)
    [,1] [,2]
    [1,] "Armenian_East" "0"
    [2,] "Turkish_East" "4.0691"
    [3,] "Armenian_West" "4.9049"
    [4,] "Greek_Trabzon" "5.0443"
    [5,] "Turkish_Trabzon" "7.1416"
    [6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
    [7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"
    [8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
    [9,] "Georgian_Laz" "9.5433"
    [10,] "Turk_Meskhetian" "10.7915"
    [11,] "Turkish_East_Central" "10.8545"
    [12,] "Azerbaijani" "11.0023"
    [13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
    [14,] "Iranian_Lur" "11.347"
    [15,] "Iraq_Turkmen" "11.3617"
    [16,] "Turkish_Anatolia" "11.4168"
    [17,] "Iranian_Mazandarani" "13.6446"
    [18,] "Turkish_Sout" "13.6658"
    [19,] "Iranian_Persian_Fars" "14.4881"
    [20,] "Azeri_Dagestan" "16.6764"
    [21,] "Kurdish_Jew" "17.3946"
    [22,] "Lebanese_Muslim" "18.6391"
    [23,] "Turkish_Southwest" "19.6542"
    [24,] "Iranian_Jew" "20.1178"
    [25,] "Syrian" "20.4556"
    [26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
    [27,] "Turkish_Northwest" "22.705"
    [28,] "Lebanese_Christian" "23.2083"
    [29,] "Adygei" "23.9183"
    [30,] "Turkmen" "24.1397"
    >
    Why Eurogenes K15?
    הִנְנִי֩ מֵבִ֨יא אוֹתָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפ֗וֹן

    Jeremiah 31

    Other potential and/or likely recent lineages: J-L816, J-PF5456, E-FGC56023

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    Why Eurogenes K15?
    These results from his k15 btw are totally of mesopotamian origins.They are closer to Georgian-Caucasian Jews,Assyrians,Kurds rather to Georgians and Azkhabians..

    26,] "Georgian" "20.8162"
    [8,] "Georgian_Jew" "9.1473"
    [13,] "Assyrian" "11.2855"
    [6,] "Kurd_Armenia" "8.7901"
    [7,] "Kurd" "8.9631"
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.5780% / 0.01578004
    40.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    32.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    16.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 2.8082% / 0.02808208
    67.2 Greek_Trabzon
    24.2 Samaritan
    7.4 Georgian_Imer
    1.2 Sardinian

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Rus Catacomb is like Yamnaya a combination of EHG+CHG.You dont see much of CHG in later steppe cultures?SAre you trolling me?
    Use Yamnaya if you must, there is still steppe admix.

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