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Thread: Thread for the Israel Megiddo outliers

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The Steppe rich Megiddo Mittani outlier definitely had his Steppe ancestry come from Central Asia. I spent weeks trying to finding a higher tail model with another member, and the only one which worked was with Megiddo MLBA+ Srubnaya + Gonur_outlier , one with Dashty Kozy works as well but that eats up Gonur outlier. Adding any Iran Chl related group actually worsened the fit and throwing Armenia MBA actually causes ridiculous standard errors. The same Steppe MBLA + Gonur_o/Aigryzhal ancestral combination occurs in 4/6 of those Kokcha and Dashty Kozy samples, so that eliminates any Caucasus or Near Eastern route.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post758231


    I also used the ghost feature on Genoplot last year. I first created a hybrid ghost using Sintashta/Srubna and those Naryn people , then I made another ghost using that previous ghost with Megiddo MLBA and the result landed very close to where Megiddo 10100 would be. Interestingly, I found out later there was one outlier sample from the Kazakh Steppe which had a similar profile. I think thats important because it demonstrates individuals like this did exist in the MLBA.

    Steppe_MLBA_oBMAC: Individuals shifted in the direction of farmers from Turan
    (Dashti_Kozy_BA, Kokcha_BA, Kyzlbulak_MLBA2, Taldysay_MLBA2
    )

    Sample Fit Srubnaya Alakul MLBA Aigyrzhal BA Petrovka MLBA Dali EBA
    Dashti Kozy BA ► I4160 2.34 63 28 9 0
    Dashti Kozy BA ► I4257 1.17 60 18 20.5 1.5
    Mittani_ghost 0 50 50 0 0
    Kyzlbulak MLBA2 ► Average 1.91 27 38.5 19.5 15



    I think that with an increase in the number of samples from the steppe, the picture of steppe migrations will become more diverse and will not be limited to one Abashevo-Andronovo stream at all. For example this:


    «POST-CATACOMB PERIOD IN THE LOWER VOLGA REGION: FROM THE KRIVAYA LUKA CULTURAL GROUP TO THE VOLGA-DON BABINO CULTURE
    Mimokhod R.A.1
    1 Institute of Archaeology Russian Academy of Sciences, 117036, Moscow, Dm.Ulyanova street, 19, Moscow

    This article is devoted to an analysis of post-catacomb sites dating from the end of the Middle Bronze Age in the Lower Volga region and the Volga-Don interfluve. A description is provided of the funerary rite and the grave-goods accompanying the burials. It is argued that the pottery from the burials, which defines the culture, is represented by vessels decorated with multiple ridges, known also from the settlements of the region under discussion. On the basis of stratigraphic observations and cultural-typological comparisons, synchronization lines of local post-catacomb antiquities are established, particularly in relation to the Dnieper-Don Babino and Lola Cultures. According to calibrated radiocarbon dates, the post-catacomb period in the lower reaches of the Volga was determined as the 22 nd-20 th cc. BC. Examination of the terminology from a new angle has made it possible to conclude that the designation the so-called Krivaya Luka Cultural Group, which was previously used to mark post-catacomb sites in the region during the last ten years, has lost its relevance by this time. Given that the Lower Volga antiquities from the final stage of the Middle Bronze Age represent the eastern part of the Babino Cultural circle, a new term is suggested - «Volga-Don Babino culture» - in keeping with the principles used to denote other Babino cultures: Dnieper-Don and Dnieper-Prut Babino cultures.»

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  3. #92
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    Could anyone check RISE392 (Russia,Sintashta) R1a1a1b2a2a-Y877? Tagankin and Genetiker have him under Y877 but negative for Y939. So far the only Y877 samples are from South India but they are Y939+ and the branch is not dated yet by Yfull so unclear if the potential Sintashta-Indo-Aryan branch diverged before or after 2000 B.C

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/

    https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8196.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Srubnaya samples are from the Volga-Ural region so this is not really saying much about the Caucasus region during this period. Also, Srubnaya samples were mostly under basal Z93 or Z2123 clades which diverged before 2000 B.C from Indo-Aryan Z2123. So far North_Caucasus_BA samples dated around 1700-3000 BC lacked Steppe_MLBA and R1a-Z93 and Catacomb/Post-Catacomb just north of the Caucasus dated mostly around 2000-2500 B.C too. None of the Armenia_BA and Kura-Axes samples has shown R1a-Z93 and not even the IA/BA samples from Northwest Iran.
    Srubnaya samples from further south might yield other subclades of Z2123, it's possible the Mitanni didn't belong under typically modern day Indo-Aryan subclades of Z93.

    I'm saying that the Mitanni being a small but mobile minority ruling class in the area they are attested most likely did not leave any trace along the path they took from their original homeland, so we should not expect historical or modern Caucasus to show Z93 subclades linked to them. This is nothing out of the ordinary for IE people of that time. Just compare with R1b-L151, it has a TMRCA which would put it's origin in the Pontic Steppe yet first time it appears in the aDNA record is in Western Europe and no sign of it in the area between despite the substantial amount of samples analyzed. It's just a plausible theory atm, I could see Mitanni straight from Andronovo into Upper Mespotamia aswell only further aDNA testing will solve this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Could anyone check RISE392 (Russia,Sintashta) R1a1a1b2a2a-Y877? Tagankin and Genetiker have him under Y877 but negative for Y939. So far the only Y877 samples are from South India but they are Y939+ and the branch is not dated yet by Yfull so unclear if the potential Sintashta-Indo-Aryan branch diverged before or after 2000 B.C

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/

    https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8196.0
    99% certain it's a false call. He barely has any reads at the Z645 level or deeper - and almost all of them are single-read C->T / G->A substitutions.

     
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    Srubnaya samples from further south might yield other subclades of Z2123, it's possible the Mitanni didn't belong under typically modern day Indo-Aryan subclades of Z93.

    I'm saying that the Mitanni being a small but mobile minority ruling class in the area they are attested most likely did not leave any trace along the path they took from their original homeland, so we should not expect historical or modern Caucasus to show Z93 subclades linked to them. This is nothing out of the ordinary for IE people of that time. Just compare with R1b-L151, it has a TMRCA which would put it's origin in the Pontic Steppe yet first time it appears in the aDNA record is in Western Europe and no sign of it in the area between despite the substantial amount of samples analyzed. It's just a plausible theory atm, I could see Mitanni straight from Andronovo into Upper Mespotamia aswell only further aDNA testing will solve this.
    There are gaping issues with that, the Mitanni at some point spoke some Sanskrit dialect and it seems to remain their liturgical language, so the split with Proto Nuristani/Kata had to occur even after the main IIr split that is well into the MLBA. The implication of what you suggest would be both the Vedic or any other Indo Aryans migrated from the Caucasus, as well as the Nuristani/Kata branch, clearly that did not happen.

    From more recent archaeological work there is nothing even connecting Mitanni sites with cultures in the Caucasus, rather dull painted Grey Ware ceramics seems to signal their arrival and looks like their calling card in South Eurasia, the closest similarities would be with some variants of early Yaz ceramics in Central Asia , and more importantly GGW and PGW sites in South Asia which are linked with the spread of Indo Aryan tribes.

    Moreover, the assemblage of the Mitannian period is marked by the common, grey and painted potteries produced and used at Tell Barri during the period of the Mitannian hegemony throughout the Khabur area, while the Assyrian pottery discovered at Tell Barri is a locally produced pottery belonging to a chronological phase after the conquest of the city by the Assyrian kings.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Millennium_BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by BnBn View Post
    Did the Sanskrit language/dialect that the ancient Mitanni Indo-Aryans shared a common ancestry with Vedic Sanskrit that was ancestral to all of the Indo-Aryan languages today? If so then where and when do you think that both languages or dialects diverged from each other? I find it fascinating that they had been in the middle east centuries before their Iranian cousins came to the region.
    Vedic Sanskrit is not ancestral to all Indo-Aryan languages. It is a sister language.
    Mitannian shows prakrit forms such as Satta instead of Sapta, Indara instead of Indra, Nasatiya instead of Nasatya, but also the shift from l to r is seen eg. Pingara instead of Pingala.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BnBn View Post
    Did the Sanskrit language/dialect that the ancient Mitanni Indo-Aryans shared a common ancestry with Vedic Sanskrit that was ancestral to all of the Indo-Aryan languages today? If so then where and when do you think that both languages or dialects diverged from each other? I find it fascinating that they had been in the middle east centuries before their Iranian cousins came to the region.
    Vedic and Dardic Sanskrit split around late Bronze Age , some give dates as early 1600 BC, others a few hundred years later. Though the fact that Mitanni names retain a very Prakrit character as Parasar mentioned it seems early Vedic and Mitanni split off from Dardic first before splitting of from each other, despite Dardic languages retaining the z consonant. Also in the context of the Vedic corpus and the fact Mitanni retain the classical dvandva in terms of their religious beliefs , culturally they seem more similar.
    Last edited by pegasus; 04-14-2021 at 11:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Could anyone check RISE392 (Russia,Sintashta) R1a1a1b2a2a-Y877? Tagankin and Genetiker have him under Y877 but negative for Y939. So far the only Y877 samples are from South India but they are Y939+ and the branch is not dated yet by Yfull so unclear if the potential Sintashta-Indo-Aryan branch diverged before or after 2000 B.C

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...asian-genomes/

    https://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=8196.0
    Y877+ is a C>T transition covered with only one read. Also, not supported with derived calls at upstream levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Vedic Sanskrit is not ancestral to all Indo-Aryan languages. It is a sister language.
    Mitannian shows prakrit forms such as Satta instead of Sapta, Indara instead of Indra, Nasatiya instead of Nasatya, but also the shift from l to r is seen eg. Pingara instead of Pingala.

    The Besso-Thracians and Getae-Dacians separated very early from Aryans, since their language still maintains roots that are missing from Iranian and it shows non-Iranian phonetic characteristics (i.e. replacing the Iranian "l" with "r").[153]
    l - Iranian
    R - Aryan - Vedic Sanskrit


    Amyrgian language was Eastern Iranian group, and he was closely associated with the modern Pashto and Munji, with which it shares a distinctive feature of d > l consonant shift.
    D - South Eastern Iranian, as old persian has d (dipi) as well (lipi - dipi )

    There are cases where West Iranin has i but considered secondary than archaic.

    Northwestern dialects also contain morphological variants with l lost by Persian with congeners in Indic, e.g., Kashani engul¯ı, Mazandarani engel (cf. Old Indic a˙ngúli-) against NP angušt (cf.
    OInd a˙ngús.
    t.ha-) ‘finger’ (Horn 1893; Krahnke 1976:226–8).9
    Northwestern iranian - l

    Only NorthWestern iranian seems to have retained - l from original



    Prakrit form 'tt' 'ss' are also found in Attic and Ionic greek


    Proto-Greek *ťť > East/Central Ionic ss, West Ionic, Attic tt.[7] This Ionic feature made it into Koine Greek.

    Proto-Greek *táťťō > Ionic τάσσω tássō, Attic τάττω táttō "I arrange"

    Paali has hurrian form ( nnu ) as well

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post760580



    Mittani dialect difference wrt Sanskrit could have arised from the influence from language/s spoken in Anatolia.



    https://amp.en.google-info.org/24271...amyrgians.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_Greek
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian...with_Thracians
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 04-15-2021 at 05:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There are gaping issues with that, the Mitanni at some point spoke some Sanskrit dialect and it seems to remain their liturgical language, so the split with Proto Nuristani/Kata had to occur even after the main IIr split that is well into the MLBA. The implication of what you suggest would be both the Vedic or any other Indo Aryans migrated from the Caucasus, as well as the Nuristani/Kata branch, clearly that did not happen.

    From more recent archaeological work there is nothing even connecting Mitanni sites with cultures in the Caucasus, rather dull painted Grey Ware ceramics seems to signal their arrival and looks like their calling card in South Eurasia, the closest similarities would be with some variants of early Yaz ceramics in Central Asia , and more importantly GGW and PGW sites in South Asia which are linked with the spread of Indo Aryan tribes.

    Moreover, the assemblage of the Mitannian period is marked by the common, grey and painted potteries produced and used at Tell Barri during the period of the Mitannian hegemony throughout the Khabur area, while the Assyrian pottery discovered at Tell Barri is a locally produced pottery belonging to a chronological phase after the conquest of the city by the Assyrian kings.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Millennium_BC
    If indeed Mitanni was basically a dialect of Vedic Sanskrit(first time I'm hearing this) then you're right from a linguistic perspective it's not likely at all that the Mitanni originated in Srubnaya.

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