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Thread: A “Persian” Iran?: Challenging the Aryan Myth and Persian Ethnocentrism

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Are Iranians in the Northwest more Caucasus shifted while Iranians in Razavi Khorasan are more Afghan/Central Asian shifted?.
    There have been a lot of internal movements within Iran, you can find huge populations of Kurds and CIC related Iranians in Mashhad, to the point I would say the core population would be much closer to those in Isfahan and Shiraz than Herat ( I noticed CM already touched on it), I think analyzing samples from isolated ethnic Persian communities in Birjand ( Jonoobi Khorasan) and Zabol ( Sistan) would provide better insight.
    Last edited by pegasus; 06-07-2020 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    There have been a lot of internal movements within Iran, you can find huge populations of Kurds and CIC related Iranians in Mashhad, to the point I would say the core population would be much closer to those in Isfahan and Shiraz than Herat ( I noticed CM already touched on it), I think analyzing samples from isolated ethnic Persian communities in Birjand ( Jonoobi Khorasan) and Zabol ( Sistan) would provide better insight.
    Weren't the Afshar tribe resettled in Khorasan for example?

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    Quote Originally Posted by misnomer View Post
    In india the usage of this word is not racial at all and never has been. it has always been a mark of respect, nobility and knowledge, like 'Sir'

    ārya mārga (Sanskrit, also āryāṣṭāṅgikamārga, ie noble eightfold path), are also terms very frequently used in earliest buddhist pali texts, and in no way shape or form are about race, because a path which all people can take cannot be about race.

    It has also come down in various forms. eg for grandmother in Marathi (from āryā) and borrowed into dravidian kannada from marathi



    Also most common honorific suffix in common Hindi. eg Narendra Modi ji or Gandhiji


    and many others.

    I havent read too much in detail about how ancient iranians used the word, but i am not at all pleased with how 19th and 20th century european 'scholars' changed the context of the word.
    Yeah, Im aware of the Indian usage of the word, but you can say the way Indians and Iranians use the term is practically like comparing apples to oranges. For us, it has always been a way to proclaim some sort of superior heritage that has ties to Germans as our "long lost brothers", and usually it would be as specific as that for some reason, not a pan European type of thing, but specifically Germans.

    It is obviously pure bullsh**, but unfortunately that's how we've used it. However like I said, I've noticed a slight shift recently in Iranians appreciating the more down to earth and realistic parts of our culture, and championing those as opposed to some artificial connection with Germans.

    Education is key, the more people educate themselves with real information, the more better equipped they are to make the right judgements on things. In this case, a simple breakdown of population genetics using a modern world wide population PCA would be more than enough to make anybody realize the fallacy of these claims. There is no special genetic/cultural link between Iranians and Germans.

    I'm sure the Germans must laugh when they hear this stuff.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 06-09-2020 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancestryfan1994 View Post
    Yeah, Im aware of the Indian usage of the word, but you can say the way Indians and Iranians use the term is practically like comparing apples to oranges. For us, it has always been a way to proclaim some sort of superior heritage that has ties to Germans as our "long lost brothers", and usually it would be as specific as that for some reason, not a pan European type of thing, but specifically Germans.

    It is obviously pure bullsh**, but unfortunately that's how we've used it. However like I said, I've noticed a slight shift recently in Iranians appreciating the more down to earth and realistic parts of our culture, and championing those as opposed to some artificial connection with Germans.

    Education is key, the more people educate themselves with real information, the more better equipped they are to make the right judgements on things. In this case, a simple breakdown of population genetics using a modern world wide population PCA would be more than enough to make anybody realize the fallacy of these claims. There is no special genetic/cultural link between Iranians and Germans.

    I'm sure the Germans must laugh when they hear this stuff.
    It was very much in fashion during the Pahlavi era, Reza Shah was particularly keen on the idea of Iranians being "Aryans". It is etymologically linked to older names for Iran such as Eranshahr.

    http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/eran-eransah

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Well as an Indian, I feel kinship with Iranians because 12,000 years ago we had an influx of Iranian hunter gatherer DNA which is fairly dominant in the Indian subcontinent today.Also Sanskrit was brought to India by Indo-Aryans who shared ancestry with the Ancient Persians and Medes as they both descended from the Proto Indo-Iranian Sintashta culture. The Vedic Gods were closer to that of the Persians, in the Rig Veda there is a reference to Mitra/Mithra who was also worshipped by the Persians.

    Culturally we have also been strongly influenced by Iran and during the Mughal era, there was more Persian literature produced in India than in Iran itself.

    Iran and south asia are completely different areas with different native population and culture. India itself can be an entire continent considering how many different languages, culture and people are within it.
    As far as Iran_N goes, average iranian doesnt even have the amount as people think mostly because its heavily diluted, otherwise iranians would cluster near south asian groups while in reality it is completely the opposite.
    based on g25, I am closer to greeks and south italians than to any group within eastern pakistan alone. This is mostly because of the higher CHG and anatolian/levant farmer admixture in iranians, which in total outnumbers the Iran_N.
    I would assume the pre iranic population of southern iran, like the elamites having close ties to the IVC but a lot has changed since then. migrations from the Caucasus, Anatolian/levant have definingly changed iran.

    even in recent history, many georgians for example were transported to central iran, they even have their own city in iran. iranians have virtually diluted the Neolithic admixture. Iran went as far as chechnya, fighting russia deep within southern russia and central asia, many migrations took place during that era as well.
    Last edited by Xeon; 08-14-2020 at 07:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    To be fair, brother, a huge portion of Nigeria is Chadic speaking which, as you know, belongs to the Afro-Asiatic language family like Somali and those same Chadic speakers tend to be Muslim and have been for a long-time so it's not like there aren't cultural and linguistic ties between Nigerians and Horners. But genetically the distinction is indeed pretty deep.



    Gonna have to side with Drobbah on this. The historical, linguistic and cultural ties between Iranians and South Asians, especially NWSAs, runs pretty deep. I'd go so far as to say Iranics, including those in Iran, are probably the closest people to them in all respects. Genetics, linguistics, history and culture. Both Indo-Iranian speaking peoples, related pre-Islamic beliefs, geographically closeby, lots of historical ties and constant contact, lots of shared ancient ancestry... The list goes on. But sure, there are obvious and marked differences.
    But in reality, i dont see these cultural similarities as south Asians claim to have with iranians. I attended a university in the west with a high south asian population, mostly punjabi and central indian. I can say without a doubt that the 2 cultures are severely different. from language, behavior, tradition, mentality, marriage and food. the closest people, both culturally and genetically to me and most Iranians would be azeris, Armenians and Turks.
    Iranian culture at its core is no different than assyrian, armenian, turkish or as far as chechen culture. they all share similatiries but south asian culture is something that I would consider alien considering it is a native culture originating thousands of miles away. I remember talking to a punjabi about culture and some of the things he would say amazed me of how extreme it was. like 3 day marriages, family behavior, social structure. it is all extremely different from any west asian culture. For example, south asians operate on a caste system which still doesnt make sense to me. this would be very alien in Iran or anywhere in west asia. I dont understand how and why a population operates on a caste system in the 21st century. in iran, you have azeris, lurs, persians and just about every iranian national mixing in urbanized areas. outside of iran, we tend to marry outside of our ethnicity more than any culture i know. every iranian friend i have in canada has settled down with a european/latin american or north american. the concept of race preservation doesn't exist in iran

    ancient religion and a linguistic link due to indo european expansion does not justify anything. otherwise slavic and iranic populations would be just as close but theyre not.
    culture isnt just about ancient invasions and expansion that result in influence, it is much more than that. it is common mentality, behavior, tradition, social structure, and just about how a society operates.
    middle east and south asia are completely 2 different worlds based on these aspects alone.

    whether you are in chechnya, turkey, syria or iran, you will see varying degrees of similarities in these aspects. I had the opportunity to visit Vladikavkaz, capital of North Ossetia and the culture there is no different than the culture I was brought up with in Iran, excluding religious influence. countries like Azerbaijan, i would consider little iran, considering how heavily similar they are to iran, with the exception of language.
    Last edited by Xeon; 08-14-2020 at 06:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon View Post
    But in reality, i dont see these cultural similarities as south Asians claim to have with iranians. I attended a university in the west with a high south asian population, mostly punjabi and central indian. I can say without a doubt that the 2 cultures are severely different. from language, behavior, tradition, mentality, marriage and food. the closest people, both culturally and genetically to me and most Iranians would be azeris, Armenians and Turks.
    Iranian culture at its core is no different than assyrian, armenian, turkish or as far as chechen culture. they all share similatiries but south asian culture is something that I would consider alien considering it is a native culture originating thousands of miles away. I remember talking to a punjabi about culture and some of the things he would say amazed me of how extreme it was. like 3 day marriages, family behavior, social structure. it is all extremely different from any west asian culture. For example, south asians operate on a caste system which still doesnt make sense to me. this would be very alien in Iran or anywhere in west asia. I dont understand how and why a population operates on a caste system in the 21st century. in iran, you have azeris, lurs, persians and just about every iranian national mixing in urbanized areas. outside of iran, we tend to marry outside of our ethnicity more than any culture i know. every iranian friend i have in canada has settled down with a european/latin american or north american. the concept of race preservation doesn't exist in iran

    ancient religion and a linguistic link due to indo european expansion does not justify anything. otherwise slavic and iranic populations would be just as close but theyre not.
    culture isnt just about ancient invasions and expansion that result in influence, it is much more than that. it is common mentality, behavior, tradition, social structure, and just about how a society operates.
    middle east and south asia are completely 2 different worlds based on these aspects alone.

    whether you are in chechnya, turkey, syria or iran, you will see varying degrees of similarities in these aspects. I had the opportunity to visit Vladikavkaz, capital of North Ossetia and the culture there is no different than the culture I was brought up with in Iran, excluding religious influence. countries like Azerbaijan, i would consider little iran, considering how heavily similar they are to iran, with the exception of language.
    Western Punjab was on the periphery of the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire, one shouldn't take them as representative of Persianiate influence in South Asia at all. Same with Eastern Bengal (what is now Bangladesh), I can suggest books if you wish to read up. I am referring to the Gangetic plains which was one of the main centres of Persianate culture in South Asia, particularly from Delhi to Lucknow. Sadly you are unlikely to meet many in Canada or even here in the UK.

    In the 19th Century, Persian lost its official status under British rule. It had enjoyed primacy as a language of governance for 600 years. What is interesting is that despite this fact, the first Persian newspapers were actually printed in India by Ram Mohan Roy:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...eedAccess=true

    https://www.milligazette.com/Archive...001/Art5ts.htm

    The newspaper Habl-al Matin (which was important during the 1906 Constitutional Revolution) was published in Calcutta,India as well:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/4310043?seq=1


    The dynamics of the Caucasus are quite different because of the nature of Russian and Soviet rule which tried to separate the present day Republic of Azerbaijan culturally and ethnically from Iran. It has been a long and persistent issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Western Punjab was on the periphery of the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire, one shouldn't take them as representative of Persianiate influence in South Asia at all. Same with Eastern Bengal (what is now Bangladesh), I can suggest books if you wish to read up. I am referring to the Gangetic plains which was one of the main centres of Persianate culture in South Asia, particularly from Delhi to Lucknow. Sadly you are unlikely to meet many in Canada or even here in the UK.

    In the 19th Century, Persian lost its official status under British rule. It had enjoyed primacy as a language of governance for 600 years. What is interesting is that despite this fact, the first Persian newspapers were actually printed in India by Ram Mohan Roy:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...eedAccess=true

    https://www.milligazette.com/Archive...001/Art5ts.htm

    The newspaper Habl-al Matin (which was important during the 1906 Constitutional Revolution) was published in Calcutta,India as well:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/4310043?seq=1


    The dynamics of the Caucasus are quite different because of the nature of Russian and Soviet rule which tried to separate the present day Republic of Azerbaijan culturally and ethnically from Iran. It has been a long and persistent issue.
    I will have to read those articles on my own time but like I stated before. India in general is a massive land mass with ancient native population, pre dating any small indo aryan migrations.
    India is also secluded from the rest of asia for the most part. During its entire history, it has developed its own native culture. And you must understand, culture is much deeper than simply language.
    As I stated before, every little detail about how a society operates is part of culture. Social structures, collective behavior/mentality, food, music, art and etc... these are all essential to what formulates
    an identity of a region or country. I can definitely say that Persian culture itself is a collection of ancient Mesopotamian civilized culture and indo Iranian culture. Take our alphabet for example, we Iranians never had our own alphabet, mostly because Persians migrated to Iran as nomads, they hadn't developed their alphabet like sumerians, Assyrians and Elamites had. Persians took from them. Ancient Persian cities and art was a mix of Babylonian and Indo Iranian art. We Persians took a lot from people around us, just like how the Romans took from the Greeks.

    the Mughals colonization of india is no different than the european colonization of african nations during ww1/2. only difference is of course time and degree of influence. take Cameroon for example, it is a french speaking african country. but does that mean they are culturally the same as the French? of course not. no amount of colonization would have the strength to change culture at its core, especially a rich, native culture that has been flourishing for thousands of years. while the Mughals indeed influenced India, I doubt it was ever strong enough to change the core, native culture of India. I shouldnt have to literally provide examples in how different our cultures are but they are clearly there, almost all of them are essential aspects of society. I will one day travel to India and see it for myself, northern india that is. I have seen many travel videos of india, done by european tourists, Ive seen both the village life and urban but I will have to do my own research.

    if you simply ask any Iranian, which group they feel the closest to, without hesitation they will list these following countries in various orders,
    Turkey, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan(Persian speaking community) and Armenia.

    also as for the Caucasus, i cant say that's entirely true. from experience both north and south Caucasians take heavy pride in their Kavkaz culture which is very different from your typical slavic-russian culture.
    it is true that Russia had an influence on aspects of their culture but no way did it change much of it. the soviets indeed modernized some aspects of kavkaz culture but it remains distinct. Russia had briefly conquered northern iran, Mazandaran province as well but in no way could they change it. they tried but it didnt work.
    Last edited by Xeon; 08-14-2020 at 11:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon View Post
    I will have to read those articles on my own time but like I stated before. India in general is a massive land mass with ancient native population, pre dating any small indo aryan migrations.
    India is also secluded from the rest of asia for the most part. During its entire history, it has developed its own native culture.
    Indian culture has been strongly influenced by foreign influences. Much of what you call Indian cuisine today includes ingredients which only arrived in the last 500 years or so. The first South Asian Empire in India, the Mauryan Empire used Aramaic and Greek. Brahmi (from which Devanagari script ultimately derives) has been theorised to have developed under Achaemenid influence in the Indus Valley. Chanakaya and Pannini both lived in Taxila which was under Persian rule in their lifetimes.

    And you must understand, culture is much deeper than simply language.
    As I stated before, every little detail about how a society operates is part of culture. Social structures, collective behavior/mentality, food, music, art and etc... these are all essential to what formulates
    an identity of a region or country. I can definitely say that Persian culture itself is a collection of ancient Mesopotamian civilized culture and indo Iranian culture. Take our alphabet for example, we Iranians never had our own alphabet, mostly because Persians migrated to Iran as nomads, they hadn't developed their alphabet like sumerians, Assyrians and Elamites had. Persians took from them. Ancient Persian cities and art was a mix of Babylonian and Indo Iranian art. We Persians took a lot from people around us, just like how the Romans took from the Greeks.
    This negates to mention how Persian identity as you may know it is a more modern invention imposed on Iran by Reza Shah Pahlavi.During the Mughal era, more Persian literature was produced in India than in Iran itself because there was considerably more patronage. This book is worth reading:

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog....=9780674975859



    the Mughals colonization of india is no different than the european colonization of african nations during ww1/2. only difference is of course time and degree of influence. take Cameroon for example, it is a french speaking african country. but does that mean they are culturally the same as the French? of course not. no amount of colonization would have the strength to change culture at its core, especially a rich, native culture that has been flourishing for thousands of years. while the Mughals indeed influenced India, I doubt it was ever strong enough to change the core, native culture of India. I shouldnt have to literally provide examples in how different our cultures are but they are clearly there, almost all of them are essential aspects of society. I will one day travel to India and see it for myself, northern india that is. I have seen many travel videos of india, done by european tourists, Ive seen both the village life and urban but I will have to do my own research.
    It is better to read academic books and perhaps meet academics in the field in India and even near to you in North America who can explain it to you. Mughals continued the Persianisation which had started under the Delhi Sultanate, the influence of Amir Khusro's work in helping form what is now Hindi and Urdu is evidence that their work started early.

    Colonisation would imply colonies, there was never specific colonies of Mughals in North India like the Europeans.

    if you simply ask any Iranian, which group they feel the closest to, without hesitation they will list these following countries in various orders,
    Turkey, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan(Persian speaking community) and Armenia.
    And Georgia?. Georgia has long been under Persian influence too. Most famously Erekle II who served under Nadir Shah and participated in his invasion of India.

    also as for the Caucasus, i cant say that's entirely true. from experience both north and south Caucasians take heavy pride in their Kavkaz culture which is very different from your typical slavic-russian culture.
    it is true that Russia had an influence on aspects of their culture but no way did it change much of it. the soviets indeed modernized some aspects of kavkaz culture but it remains distinct. Russia had briefly conquered northern iran, Mazandaran province as well but in no way could they change it. they tried but it didnt work.
    Azerbaijan has definitely embraced the Soviets' invention of a separate Azeri identity so I am not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Western Punjab was on the periphery of the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughal Empire, one shouldn't take them as representative of Persianiate influence in South Asia at all. Same with Eastern Bengal (what is now Bangladesh), I can suggest books if you wish to read up. I am referring to the Gangetic plains which was one of the main centres of Persianate culture in South Asia, particularly from Delhi to Lucknow. Sadly you are unlikely to meet many in Canada or even here in the UK.

    In the 19th Century, Persian lost its official status under British rule. It had enjoyed primacy as a language of governance for 600 years. What is interesting is that despite this fact, the first Persian newspapers were actually printed in India by Ram Mohan Roy:

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...eedAccess=true

    https://www.milligazette.com/Archive...001/Art5ts.htm

    The newspaper Habl-al Matin (which was important during the 1906 Constitutional Revolution) was published in Calcutta,India as well:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/4310043?seq=1


    The dynamics of the Caucasus are quite different because of the nature of Russian and Soviet rule which tried to separate the present day Republic of Azerbaijan culturally and ethnically from Iran. It has been a long and persistent issue.
    lots of middle classes through out devloping world are infleunced by certain globalized trends that are common , you have to look at core culture of the region specially rural areas . it is so different that any linguistic and genetic link to a west asian country that I saw lots of people talking about on online froms from both sides(mostly from india and iran) , came as a surprise to me.

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