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Thread: [split] Yazidis & co.: A Mitanni Signal?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Try to use a MBA or Copper Age anatolian sample.Not even me as a Pontic Greek myself and i got not more than 5% admixture from Myceneans and you expect Kurds to have xD?Your anatolia N shift indicates Native Anatolian(hattic-hittite) ancestry witch is decent among Kurdish people.
    how can you not have more than 5% ? my modelling shows 47% for me . I am confused

    how do you know you dont have any ? I mean yes I dont have any I know . I just used it because I didnt find the anatolian references . it seems that the "Anatolia" is removed and only the rest of the names are there lol . kaman kalehöyük fits better . but the mycanaean works well as a med proxy still . and I am expecting you to score more than me in the modelling
    50% Adygei + 50% Syrian @ 6,762
    50% Syrian + 50% Kumyk @ 8,297
    50% Samaritians + 50% Lezgin @ 7,032
    50% KurdishJewish + 50% Cirkassian @ 4,596
    50% Georgian_Abkhazia_170 + 50% Assyrian_2_30 @ 4,927
    50% Lebanese_Druze + 50% Adygei @ 7,321


    Kurdish people gallery/thread -

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  2. #22
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    The Mycenean samples have very bad quality IMO and low coverage.If you want to use a Med sample try the: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

    It is from Greek colonizers in Catalonia Spain.They are almost identical to Myceneans.But IMO Kurds and the majority of west asian's Barcin-ANF ancestry is coming from Hattic-Hittites-Hurrians etc.Armenians,Assyrians,laz,Pontic Greeks,Kurds,Turks are all ANF admixed.You can also use the recent samples from Arslantepe and Ikitzepe as well.

    Look my model for example.As a Pontic Greek i am using both the Empuries sample and the Ikitzepe(witch is from Samsun city).

    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.5780% / 0.01578004
    40.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    32.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    16.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


    My mother for example is not that far away genetically from Kurds.She got Kurdish on her list(G25 averages).We share pretty much the same components..thought in different amounts!!!!

    Distance to: Theodora_scaled
    0.02635265 Turkish_Trabzon
    0.02706294 Greek_Trabzon
    0.03125680 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.03400412 Armenian
    0.04149149 Georgian_Laz
    0.04284557 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.04378576 Assyrian
    0.04587846 Georgian_Jew
    0.05388215 Iraqi_Jew
    0.05696881 Druze
    0.05771673 Iranian_Jew
    0.05843571 Cypriot
    0.05848924 Lebanese_Druze
    0.06193891 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
    0.06303160 Georgian_Imer
    0.06387379 Lebanese_Christian
    0.06396132 Syrian_Jew
    0.06457593 Karaite_Egypt
    0.06520764 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.06600926 Greek_Kos
    0.06664057 Turkish_Kayseri
    0.06989302 Kurdish
    0.07218288 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.07267641 Talysh_Azerbaijan
    0.07289398 Syrian

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  4. #23
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    well it is no surprise since you are geographically close people . I also get Pontic Greeks at 0.06478491 in my list . but we have noticable differences still . we have more Iran N and more Steppe while you are more CHG

    why do you use kura araxes along with ikiztepe etc. ?

    kura araxes already has anatolian etc in it
    50% Adygei + 50% Syrian @ 6,762
    50% Syrian + 50% Kumyk @ 8,297
    50% Samaritians + 50% Lezgin @ 7,032
    50% KurdishJewish + 50% Cirkassian @ 4,596
    50% Georgian_Abkhazia_170 + 50% Assyrian_2_30 @ 4,927
    50% Lebanese_Druze + 50% Adygei @ 7,321


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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    Sample Fit Sappali Tepe BA Iberia Northeast Empuries2 Oroqen
    AGUsers►Magnetic 2.7584 52 45.5 2.5


    well it is no surprise since you are geographically close people . I also get Pontic Greeks at 0.06478491 in my list

    why do you use kura araxes along with ikiztepe etc. ?

    kura araxes already has anatolian etc in it
    I know.All the transcaucasian cultures(Kura-Araxes,Maykop) etc they have a decent amount of Anatolian N admixture.But when i am modeling my self i need both a transcaucasian sample(i am getting good fits with both K.A and Maykop) and an Anatolian Copper age/Bronze age sample.If i want a good distance i need to put a kura-araxes sample.I also need a Greek and Jewish sample to model my self because of my Levant/EEF shift.My ancestry with a few words has to do with a colchian-Kartvelian(similar to laz-Georgian),a native anatolian population(hattian-hittite) and East Med ethnic groups like Jews and Greeks.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    The Mycenean samples have very bad quality IMO and low coverage.If you want to use a Med sample try the: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

    It is from Greek colonizers in Catalonia Spain.They are almost identical to Myceneans.But IMO Kurds and the majority of west asian's Barcin-ANF ancestry is coming from Hattic-Hittites-Hurrians etc.Armenians,Assyrians,laz,Pontic Greeks,Kurds,Turks are all ANF admixed.You can also use the recent samples from Arslantepe and Ikitzepe as well.

    Look my model for example.As a Pontic Greek i am using both the Empuries sample and the Ikitzepe(witch is from Samsun city).

    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.5780% / 0.01578004
    40.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    32.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    16.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


    My mother for example is not that far away genetically from Kurds.She got Kurdish on her list(G25 averages).We share pretty much the same components..thought in different amounts!!!!

    Distance to: Theodora_scaled
    0.02635265 Turkish_Trabzon
    0.02706294 Greek_Trabzon
    0.03125680 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.03400412 Armenian
    0.04149149 Georgian_Laz
    0.04284557 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.04378576 Assyrian
    0.04587846 Georgian_Jew
    0.05388215 Iraqi_Jew
    0.05696881 Druze
    0.05771673 Iranian_Jew
    0.05843571 Cypriot
    0.05848924 Lebanese_Druze
    0.06193891 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
    0.06303160 Georgian_Imer
    0.06387379 Lebanese_Christian
    0.06396132 Syrian_Jew
    0.06457593 Karaite_Egypt
    0.06520764 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.06600926 Greek_Kos
    0.06664057 Turkish_Kayseri
    0.06989302 Kurdish
    0.07218288 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.07267641 Talysh_Azerbaijan
    0.07289398 Syrian
    What is Ikitzepe sample? A native Anatolian? Where does it plot?

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    As wizardly as this model appears to be, it doesn't make a whole lot of historical or geographical sense. Megiddo and Ebla are both distally shifted from the populations that are currently considered as Kurdish - Particularly the Yazidis from Armenia. A back-migration of Indo-Aryans from Megiddo or forward migration of ?Hittites from Alalakh into the SE Turkey-Armenia-N Iraq region... That's reaching.

    IMO, as is the case with the Ebla+Sappali pairing for W. Iranian-related pops in general, this looks like another case of chance "goodness of fit" owing to the inclusion of accidentally perfect ingredients. Having said that, stranger things have happened in the world of population genetics - Could the Yazidis be "Iranicised" descendants of a Mitanni-Hittite-Kassite-like hybrid population... Maybe?

    One wrench in that proposal's machinery is the observation that the Talysh of Azerbaijan form a genetic continuum of sorts with the Yazidi. By extension, that'd implicate most Kurds, Azeris, Lors, Hasanlu_IA etc. as being a product of a similar ancient multi-Indo-European-speaking blend. That conclusion is special pleading of a unique kind that I haven't seen since the good ol' days of overreach, when Balochis were described as being "90% Kurdish".
    Yes, I feel the BMAC component is a bit inflated, we need BA genomes from Western Iran that would account for that excess Iran_N without inflating BMAC values though I don't feel it will drastically change, in that final Ezidi model , the BMAC;Steppe ratios approximate to a TKM IA like population, and the BMAC component went down 6% . The Megiddo outlier does not model with Megiddo it prefers Ebla. Also, the Mittani outlier model fails with Kurds it works with Ezids. By the Ezidi's own accord some claim to have come from the Rojava area in Northern Syria, how accurate that is remains to be seen but the model supports that and this is Mittani territory. Ezidis tend to have more Steppe ancestry as well compared to the main Kurdish cluster. I will look at Talysh people and compare with Ezidis
    Last edited by pegasus; 06-07-2020 at 07:40 AM.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Yes, I feel the BMAC component is a bit inflated, we need BA genomes from Western Iran that would account for that excess Iran_N without inflating BMAC values though I don't feel it will drastically change, in that final Ezidi model , the BMAC;Steppe ratios approximate to a TKM IA like population, and the BMAC component went down 6% .
    IMO, in the absence of suitable genomes, it's probably sensible at this point to tentatively presume that the various Indo-Iranian waves which reached the Zagros were between a 50:50 (TRK_IA) or 60:40 (Megiddo_o1's non-Levant admix) of BMAC:MLBA steppe, ancestry wise.

    All Iranians and Kurds seem to show a larger proportion of BMAC-related ancestry if that ratio is applied, which is in accordance with your ~6% value for Yazidis. We may consider that surplus as evidence of the pre-II interactions (f.ex. BMAC traders).

    The confounder here for populations like the Lurs, Feylis and Persians from Fars province is they may well harbour Elamite ancestry, which in all likelihood was rich in Iran_N-related admix.
    Observe this unusually good model for Lurs:

    Code:
    [
      {
        "sample": "Iranian Lor:Average",
        "distance": 1.2307,
        "Ezid": 68.5,
        "Seh_Gabi_C": 16.5,
        "Talysh_Azerbaijan": 15
      }
    ]
    Ergo, the above "soft rule" probably applies mostly to NW-N Iranian-derived populations (Talysh, Iranian Azeris, Yazidis, other Kurmanji Kurds, Zazas, potentially the Sorani Kurds, things become shaky once one hits Kermanshah province IMO).

    That'd roughly place the sum Iron Age Indo-Iranian contribution to the first five pops described above as being between 30-50% overall.

    The Megiddo outlier does not model with Megiddo it prefers Ebla.
    More evidence in favour of the Indo-Aryan Mitanni origin for this sample, I'd wager.

    Also, the Mittani outlier model fails with Kurds it works with Ezids. By the Ezidi's own accord some claim to have come from the Rojava area in Northern Syria, how accurate that is remains to be seen but the model supports that and this is Mittani territory.
    It could well be the case that Yazidis specifically were a Hurrian-Mitanni hybrid population that became Iranicized at a later time (or "Kurmanjified", if that's a word).

    Would certainly explain the highly unusual (and potentially syncretic) nature of their religion.

    I'm quite open to this being a possibility. Though, an explanation as to why they superficially form a "continuum" of sorts with the Talysh requires explaining.

    Ezidis tend to have more Steppe ancestry as well compared to the main Kurdish cluster.
    Yes, they seem to represent the top half shelf of the Kurmanji Kurdish-Iranian Azeri range for that.

    The Yazidis most certainly aren't to KK's and IA's as what Pamiris are to Pashtuns or the Kalash - The highest-scoring Yazidis are in the same general bracket as the highest-scoring non-Yazidi Kurmanji Kurds (e.g. StarDS9), Azeris (several, including the halfie yours truly), Zoroastrians and the like.

    I will look at Talysh people and compare with Ezidis
    Please do. Show us more of your wizardry (no sarcasm, you produce superb models on a frequent basis).
    Last edited by DMXX; 06-07-2020 at 06:43 PM. Reason: clarif

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Yes, I feel the BMAC component is a bit inflated, we need BA genomes from Western Iran that would account for that excess Iran_N without inflating BMAC values though I don't feel it will drastically change, in that final Ezidi model , the BMAC;Steppe ratios approximate to a TKM IA like population, and the BMAC component went down 6% . The Megiddo outlier does not model with Megiddo it prefers Ebla. Also, the Mittani outlier model fails with Kurds it works with Ezids. By the Ezidi's own accord some claim to have come from the Rojava area in Northern Syria, how accurate that is remains to be seen but the model supports that and this is Mittani territory. Ezidis tend to have more Steppe ancestry as well compared to the main Kurdish cluster. I will look at Talysh people and compare with Ezidis
    Kurds began to migrate to the region in the 8th century and continued the migration over several centuries. Ezidis are descendants of kurds who used to have local beliefs, who followed Sheikh Adi, a umayyad descendant sufist from Lebabon, which was reformer/prophet for them. So their religion is relative new with mixed roots.

    But you are correct about Ezidis and connections to Northeastern Syria, In fact they were many places but displaced, harrased by among others muslim Kurds. Shingal/Sinjar is bordered with Northeastern Syria. Ezidis speak a Kurmanji dialect which is most similar to dialects spoken Northeastern Syria and provinces in Turkey like Mardin by muslim Kurds. Northwestern Syria (Afrin region) is another story. Their dialects are closer related to Kurds of central Anatolia and Khorasan, they also have same tribe names.

    Borders between Turkey, Syria and Iraq didn't exist 100 years ago. So the demographical variation/similarity is across borders.
    Last edited by mountain; 06-07-2020 at 07:03 PM.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    IMO, in the absence of suitable genomes, it's probably sensible at this point to tentatively presume that the various Indo-Iranian waves which reached the Zagros were between a 50:50 (TRK_IA) or 60:40 (Megiddo_o1's non-Levant admix) of BMAC:MLBA steppe, ancestry wise.

    All Iranians and Kurds seem to show a larger proportion of BMAC-related ancestry if that ratio is applied, which is in accordance with your ~6% value for Yazidis.

    The confounder here for populations like the Lurs, Feylis and Persians from Fars province is they may well harbour Elamite ancestry, which in all likelihood was rich in Iran_N-related admix.
    Observe this unusually good model for Lurs:

    Code:
    [
      {
        "sample": "Iranian Lor:Average",
        "distance": 1.2307,
        "Ezid": 68.5,
        "Seh_Gabi_C": 16.5,
        "Talysh_Azerbaijan": 15
      }
    ]
    Ergo, the above "soft rule" probably applies mostly to NW-N Iranian-derived populations (Talysh, Iranian Azeris, Yazidis, other Kurmanji Kurds, Zazas, potentially the Sorani Kurds, things become shaky once one hits Kermanshah province IMO).

    That'd roughly place the sum Iron Age Indo-Iranian contribution to the first five pops described above as being between 30-50% overall.



    More evidence in favour of the Indo-Aryan Mitanni origin for this sample, I'd wager.



    It could well be the case that Yazidis specifically were a Hurrian-Mitanni hybrid population that became Iranicized at a later time (or "Kurmanjified", if that's a word).

    Would certainly explain the highly unusual (and potentially syncretic) nature of their religion.

    I'm quite open to this being a possibility. Though, an explanation as to why they superficially form a "continuum" of sorts with the Talysh requires explaining.



    Yes, they seem to represent the top half shelf of the Kurmanji Kurdish-Iranian Azeri range for that.

    The Yazidis most certainly aren't to KK's and IA's as what Pamiris are to Pashtuns or the Kalash - The highest-scoring Yazidis are in the same general bracket as the highest-scoring Kurds (e.g. StarDS9), Azeris (several, including the halfie yours truly), Zoroastrians and the like.



    Please do. Show us more of your wizardry.
    Talysh have significant Caucasus ancestry which is absent in the Ezidi. I think the continuum between Talysh and Ezidis is because the CHG is compensating for the relative lack of Iran compared with Ezidis and conversely the excess Iran_N in Ezidis compensates for the lack of CHG relative to Talysh so they kind of cancel each other out.

    "sample": "Ezid:Average",
    "distance": 0.8163,
    "Ebla_EMBA": 30,
    "Sappali_Tepe_BA": 27,
    "Hajji_Firuz_C": 24.5,
    "Krasnoyarsk_MLBA": 17,
    "Mongola": 1.5,
    "Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan": 0
    },
    {
    "sample": "Talysh Azerbaijan:Average",
    "distance": 0.9651,
    "Ebla_EMBA": 21.5,
    "Sappali_Tepe_BA": 21.5,
    "Hajji_Firuz_C": 19,
    "Krasnoyarsk_MLBA": 12,
    "Mongola": 2.5,
    "Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan": 23.5
    }

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  17. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The most Parsimonious models for Ezids I got was this, I think other Kurds esp those in Turkey will show more diversity and show a combination of Hittite/Luwian and Indo Iranian ancestry. Though in both our models it suggests there was a massive movement from Central Asia to this region.

    Target: Ezid:EZI-010
    Distance: 1.4403% / 0.01440266
    52.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    26.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
    21.4 KAZ_Dali_MLBA


    Target: Ezid
    Distance: 0.4908% / 0.00490822
    51.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    31.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
    17.4 KAZ_Dali_MLBA



    "sample": "Kurdish:Average",
    "distance": 1.1331,
    "Alalakh_MLBA": 50,
    "Sappali_Tepe_BA": 36,
    "Oy_Dzhaylau_MLBA": 14




    With genoplot
    I am probably late here but wanted to say that i agree and get with a a different model on vahaduo basically the same results. Ezidi definetly have unusual high steppe/Mitanni-like ancestry even compared to Iranians way more in the east. But it seems it is very hard to differentiate BMAC from Iran_C here so a lot of local Iran_C ancestry is in BMAC here.

    Target: Iranian_Fars

    Distance: 0.3848% / 0.00384845
    35.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    34.8 BMAC
    13.2 Steppe
    8.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
    4.4 KAZ_Botai
    3.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

    Target: Iranian_Lor
    Distance: 0.4585% / 0.00458490
    46.2 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    39.6 BMAC
    8.0 Steppe
    3.0 KAZ_Botai
    2.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
    1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

    Target: Ezid
    Distance: 0.1970% / 0.00196999
    44.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    29.6 BMAC
    17.8 Steppe
    5.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
    2.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
    0.8 KAZ_Botai

    Target: Kurdish
    Distance: 0.5900% / 0.00589956
    38.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
    36.0 BMAC
    15.4 Steppe
    9.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

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