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Thread: If a european lacks a strong result from Eurogenes, what calculator to use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandsofHistory View Post
    Thanks for the help! That's great advice.
    When you say compare - what am I looking for? With oracle I believe it's the 'lowest' number - with admixes, what's the thing to look for?
    I meant looking at the different results the various calculators give. For example, for people who are like 7/8 one ethnicity and 1/8 the other, it tends to appear, in one way or another.

    On Vahaduo, you can select the references which you wish to compare to (http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/).

    The Jewish history is more complex though, so genetic studies also can be quite helpful.
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 06-09-2020 at 11:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    John Doe gave you some ballpark figures (see above) for Ashkenazim, which might be helpful. It really depends what you mean by "Middle Eastern", though. Different calculators will give you different estimates because they have different reference populations and also look at different points in time (e.g. what's "Middle Eastern" 5000 years ago isn't necessarily the same as 2000 years ago). I think you fit into the Ashkenazi average though, so I would look at what's been said about Ashkenazim as a whole to understand how much MENA and European ancestry you have and where it comes from. Like most Ashkenazim, the biggest percentage of your Euro ancestry is probably Southern European acquired mainly during Classical Antiquity, with a smaller percentage coming from Western and Eastern Europe in the Medieval-Modern disapora. I'm not positive, but it looks like you have a relatively high proportion of "North Atlantic" vs. "Baltic" in K13, which might be related to the fact that you have a considerable amount of Western Ashkenazi vs. Eastern Ashkenazi ancestry, but that's just a hunch.

    If I were you, I'd look more closely at your cousin matches on 23andme, GEDmatch, and whatever other services you've tested with or are planning to test with. If you look at your top matches, especially the ones with particularly long shared segments (rather than a bunch of small segments), you might be able to put together a rough picture of where some of your recent ancestors came from. Has anyone else in your family taken an ancestry test?
    Definitely, those estimates are a good place to start, I'm just a bit confused about how to figure out mine specifically from all the options. I just want to know if my suspicions - that my family are significantly ME/NE, like enough to count as mixed race but chose not to acknowledge it/to 'pass' once they escaped the old world - are true, I guess. I've always suspected we were at least 1/8th ME/NE, wondering if that's in the realm of reality or too high/low..

    The atlantic/baltic thing is really interesting. I'll have to look into that more.

    So the issue with cousins is that it seems like every Jewish person in the world is a cousin. We're talking in the thousands. I think that's due to the high degree of endogamy among Jews. And a lot of them come up as related to me on both sides of the family, though often highly related to one side and barely to the other (maybe suggesting that the small Jewish gene pool leads to the effect of over-estimating relatedness? Or just that there was a lot of in-marrying).

    If family having taken ancestry tests is helpful, that might be my best route! A lot of my family has - my, my sibling, my mother and father, my father's mother and his siblings, several 2nd cousins... Though sadly it seems most people have that annoying "You're 98%+ Ashkenazi Jewish [lists 0 locations where people actually came from]" thing. Everyone did it through 23andme. Family effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I think it should be back July, whatever the wait totally worth it and one of your better options for now with analysing your own ancestral DNA.

    The reaction of Jews to their results is sometimes a laugh, sorry! . My sephardic mum was also surprised to see just 3.4 percent Spanish and Portuguese at 23andme. She just assumed she was iberian DNA wise lol. DNA results would be a rude shock for a White or European supremacist of Jewish background (not at all saying you are!)
    Ha, fair enough. Yeah I bet many are shocked! I've actually long suspected we were mixed so I guess part of me wants to find out the truth to know if I get to say "I told you so". It also would also mean a lot to me, given the terrible history of prejudice and violence, to know that my family don't carry much/any heritage from perpetrator groups. And I guess I'm looking for an explanation for a lot of my experiences (don't sunburn easily/tan well despite appearing quite pale, people sometimes sort of asking me what I am or telling me I look a bit like something but they aren't sure what...).

    My hope was that I'd be validated in my assumption of being 1/8th ME/NE, which was my best guess. I'm wondering now if that number is accurate, or might even be a little higher. The north african ancestry surprised me more, but it's kinda cool because that really validates my family being levites, given research on levites + north african DNA.

    So many people have told me that Jews are just European and I always thought that didn't match up with Jewish history, family history, and some of our features.

    And I'll definitely wait around for that, then. I just wish there was a guide to these calculators! I don't care if some parts of my ancestry are always gonna be a question, I just wanna be able to definitely say I'm at least X% ME and X% European, even if there's another 50+% that's a mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    I meant looking at the different results the various calculators give. For example, for people who are like 7/8 one ethnicity and 1/8 the other, it tends to appear, in one way or another.

    On Vahaduo, you can select the references which you wish to compare to (http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/).

    The Jewish history is more complex though, so genetic studies also can be quite helpful.
    Awesome, I'll give that a try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandsofHistory View Post
    Definitely, those estimates are a good place to start, I'm just a bit confused about how to figure out mine specifically from all the options. I just want to know if my suspicions - that my family are significantly ME/NE, like enough to count as mixed race but chose not to acknowledge it/to 'pass' once they escaped the old world - are true, I guess. I've always suspected we were at least 1/8th ME/NE, wondering if that's in the realm of reality or too high/low..

    The atlantic/baltic thing is really interesting. I'll have to look into that more.

    So the issue with cousins is that it seems like every Jewish person in the world is a cousin. We're talking in the thousands. I think that's due to the high degree of endogamy among Jews. And a lot of them come up as related to me on both sides of the family, though often highly related to one side and barely to the other (maybe suggesting that the small Jewish gene pool leads to the effect of over-estimating relatedness? Or just that there was a lot of in-marrying).

    If family having taken ancestry tests is helpful, that might be my best route! A lot of my family has - my, my sibling, my mother and father, my father's mother and his siblings, several 2nd cousins... Though sadly it seems most people have that annoying "You're 98%+ Ashkenazi Jewish [lists 0 locations where people actually came from]" thing. Everyone did it through 23andme. Family effort.
    You are definitely much higher than 1/8 MENA, I don't think there's any doubt about that. Just going off your Eurogenes K13 (not that that's necessarily the most accurate way to gauge it) you are about 53% MENA, combining the East_Med, West Asian, Red Sea and NE African percentages. Of course if you look at other GEDmatch calculators, and once you start running calculators in G25, you'll find that those percentages vary, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a calculator that would put you at less than 1/3 "Middle Eastern".

    As for the cousin matches, yes, the "Ashkenazi effect" is a big problem given that you may appear to match people a lot more closely than you really do in terms of actual shared recent ancestry. That's why I suggested you look at matches that share particularly long segments with you. It may not give you that much information, but cousin matching is still much more likely to give you valuable information about recent ancestry than GEDmatch calculators are.

    Keep working on it. The fact that other family members have tested will still be helpful in narrowing down who's connected to whom, even if the "Ashkenazi effect" causes some confusion. I know it can be frustrating though. So far DNA testing has not helped me to expand the Jewish side of my family tree through concrete links, though it has provided some potentially helpful hints.

    Hopefully testing services will start getting more specific. I believe AncestryDNA is the only one so far that has specific sub-regions for Ashkenazim. I haven't tested with them, but a couple of my cousins did, and their "genetic communities" seem to confirm that our Ukrainian Jewish ancestors belong to the same groupings as most Eastern Ashkenazim (i.e. coming from a North to South expansion out of Latvia/Poland). Since they at least provide a differentiation between Eastern and Western/Central European Ashkenazi groups, it might be worthwhile to test with them. I'm hoping that FTDNA and MyHeritage's new iterations will have more subdivisions. Don't know anything about 23andme's plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    You are definitely much higher than 1/8 MENA, I don't think there's any doubt about that. Just going off your Eurogenes K13 (not that that's necessarily the most accurate way to gauge it) you are about 53% MENA, combining the East_Med, West Asian, Red Sea and NE African percentages. Of course if you look at other GEDmatch calculators, and once you start running calculators in G25, you'll find that those percentages vary, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a calculator that would put you at less than 1/3 "Middle Eastern".

    As for the cousin matches, yes, the "Ashkenazi effect" is a big problem given that you may appear to match people a lot more closely than you really do in terms of actual shared recent ancestry. That's why I suggested you look at matches that share particularly long segments with you. It may not give you that much information, but cousin matching is still much more likely to give you valuable information about recent ancestry than GEDmatch calculators are.

    Keep working on it. The fact that other family members have tested will still be helpful in narrowing down who's connected to whom, even if the "Ashkenazi effect" causes some confusion. I know it can be frustrating though. So far DNA testing has not helped me to expand the Jewish side of my family tree through concrete links, though it has provided some potentially helpful hints.

    Hopefully testing services will start getting more specific. I believe AncestryDNA is the only one so far that has specific sub-regions for Ashkenazim. I haven't tested with them, but a couple of my cousins did, and their "genetic communities" seem to confirm that our Ukrainian Jewish ancestors belong to the same groupings as most Eastern Ashkenazim (i.e. coming from a North to South expansion out of Latvia/Poland). Since they at least provide a differentiation between Eastern and Western/Central European Ashkenazi groups, it might be worthwhile to test with them. I'm hoping that FTDNA and MyHeritage's new iterations will have more subdivisions. Don't know anything about 23andme's plans.
    Wow, that'd be so cool to find out my suspicions are correct!
    I wonder if there any chance what the test thinks is MENA might be italian/other 'white' Mediterranean? But yeah it does seem I'm a significant portion ME/NE.

    So with the long segments - a crazy portion of those cousins share long segments with me, I think. Unless I'm misunderstanding how 'long' counts as a long segment. I'll have to take a second look at that.

    Thank you again, I felt so clueless about these results and you've given me so many possible directions. I hope you have good luck with figuring out your roots too! And hey, if you have a Jewish side, maybe we'll run into each other again when I contact my 1,700 'cousins', haha. I'm pretty sure every person who's ever so much as sat next to a Jewish person on a train is a 'cousin' of mine so maybe you're on that list.

    I wonder if there's a market for creating a testing app specifically for populations who are tough to test, including Jews. Maybe people here could work out a deal with some calculator creators to turn their creations in a well-tested, marketable, user-friendly interface and charge a nominal amount for folks to upload their raw data and get clear accurate results.

    I've enver even heard of FTDNA and know so little about myheritage - are those similar to 23andme? Or are those 'whole genome' sites? (I've been debating if whole genome is worth it)

    I've heard 23andme deliberately decided to hide NE/ME heritage and group Jews as European for "political purposes" =\
    Last edited by StrandsofHistory; 06-10-2020 at 06:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandsofHistory View Post
    Ancient samples?

    I'm mainly just trying to figure out how middle/near eastern I am and maybe from which middle/near eastern areas. Just let me know which calculator/map is best for that and how much of a donation you'd like (and through what method to send it)?

    Also, how come it's unavailable? Does that mean it is permanently gone?
    When you get G25 values I can make for you a map like this (it only shows how much some average Ashkenazi kit is similar to other modern samples ):



    You can donate me via Paypal (informations are inside my spoiler - down bellow)
     
    All simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps and calculations I ask for a donation via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Ashkenazi Jews are (depending which individual) around 40-60% Middle Eastern (mostly Levantine), 30-40% South European (mostly Aegean) and around 15-25% interior European (mostly Western with some Eastern Euro admixture as well). So no your Middle Eastern levels are more or less average it seems to me. Ashkenazi Jews although historically residing in Central and Eastern Europe don't match the non Jewish populations there genetically, they have some admixture from them but for the most part AJs derive their ancestry from the Eastern Mediterranean
    So I've been meaning to ask and keep forgetting- by any chance, would you have any sources on those figures? I'd love to get to read more about any genetic studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandsofHistory View Post
    So I've been meaning to ask and keep forgetting- by any chance, would you have any sources on those figures? I'd love to get to read more about any genetic studies.
    The thread on this website (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ine-admixture) concerning the admixture of Western Jews in general and AJs in particular kind of concludes everything we know so far (extremely long thread though lol). I believe it contains within it most of the academic studies which have been released concerning AJs thus far. In addition the users on this website Agamemnon, Erik and StillWater are I believe quite knowledgeable about this, they could probably direct you to the specific studies

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrandsofHistory View Post
    So I've been meaning to ask and keep forgetting- by any chance, would you have any sources on those figures? I'd love to get to read more about any genetic studies.
    Found these several years ago - so they might be outdated:
    http://sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1342.summary
    http://books.google.com/books?id=9vX...%20age&f=false
    http://nymag.com/news/features/ashkenazi-jews-2011-11/
    http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArtic...-a0020818.html
    http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/41/
    http://www.ncbi.nhi.gov/pmc/articles/PMC18733/
    https://www.bbc.com/news/10276393
    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature09103
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn.../#.W-4eC5NvbIV
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/PMC18733/
    http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs...65703321560976
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771134/
    https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_Doron.pdf
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/30322072/
    http://www.ncbi.nhi.gov/pubmed/24901650
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0603123707.htm
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2797531/
    https://t.co/Apgf9GjnNP
    https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S...297(19)30111-9

    A 1999 study titled “Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes” (M.F. Hammer et.al, Proceedings of the US National Academy of Sciences 6769–6774, doi: 10.1073/pnas.100115997) found that:

    “[D]espite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.

    “Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities . . . Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.”

    A November 2001 study titled “The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East” (Almut Nebel et. al., American Journal of Human Genetics, Nov 2001; 69(5): 1095–1112) found that in most Jewish populations, male line ancestors appear to have been mainly Middle Eastern.

    The study found that Ashkenazi Jews in particular “share more common paternal lineages with other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than with non-Jewish populations in areas where Jews lived in Eastern Europe, Germany and the French Rhine Valley. This is consistent with Jewish traditions in placing most Jewish paternal origins in the region of the Middle East.”

    A September 2006 study titled “European Population Substructure: Clustering of Northern and Southern Populations” (Michael F Seldin et.al., PLOS Genetics, DOI: 0.1371/journal.pgen.0020143) found that both Ashkenazi Jews as well as Sephardic Jews showed more than 85% membership in the ‘southern’ European group which made their results “consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups.”

    An April 2008 study titled “Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora” (Counting the Founders: The Matrilineal Genetic Ancestry of the Jewish Diaspora)found that about 40% of Ashkenazi Jews originate maternally from just four female founders, who were of Middle Eastern origin.

    A January 2009 study titled “A genome-wide genetic signature of Jewish ancestry perfectly separates individuals with and without full Jewish ancestry in a large random sample of European Americans” (Anna C Need et.al., Genome Biology, 2009; 10(1): R7. doi: 10.1186/gb-2009-10-1-r7) found that “individuals with full Jewish ancestry formed a clearly distinct cluster from those individuals with no Jewish ancestry.”

    This study showed that in DNA terms, Jews, both Sephardic and Ashkenazim, cluster as a distinct group—something that, if the Khazar theory was true, would be impossible.

    A December 2009 study titled “Genomic microsatellites identify shared Jewish ancestry intermediate between Middle Eastern and European populations” (Naama M Kopelman et.al., BMC Genetics. 2009; 10: 80. doi: 10.1186/1471-2156-10-80) found that :

    “Jewish populations show a high level of genetic similarity to each other, clustering together in several types of analysis of population structure. These results support the view that the Jewish populations largely share a common Middle Eastern ancestry and that over their history they have undergone varying degrees of admixture with non-Jewish populations of European descent.”

    A December 2009 study titled “The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people” (Doron M. Behar, et. al., Nature 466, 238–242 (08 July 2010) doi:10.1038/nature09103) analyzed individuals from 14 Jewish Diaspora communities and compare these patterns of genome-wide diversity with those from 69 Old World non-Jewish populations in order to “provide comprehensive comparisons between Jewish and non-Jewish populations in the Diaspora, as well as with non-Jewish populations from the Middle East and north Africa.”

    The results identified a “previously unrecognized genetic substructure within the Middle East” and that “Most Jewish samples form a remarkably tight subcluster,” and that “trace[s] the origins of most Jewish Diaspora communities to the Levant.”

    A June 2010 study titled “Abraham’s children in the genome era: major Jewish diaspora populations comprise distinct genetic clusters with shared Middle Eastern ancestry” (Atzmon et al., American Journal of Human Genetics, 2010;86:850-859) refuted the idea of large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry.

    This study found used genome-wide analysis of seven Jewish groups (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek, and Ashkenazi) and “demonstrated distinctive Jewish population clusters, each with shared Middle Eastern ancestry, proximity to contemporary Middle Eastern populations, and variable degrees of European and North African admixture.”

    This paper specifically excluded the “Khazar theory” as an origin for present-day Jews, saying “the genetic proximity . . . is incompatible with theories that Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part the direct lineal descendants of converted Khazars or Slavs.”

    A March 2012 study by Steven M. Bray et. al., titled “Signatures of founder effects, admixture, and selection in the Ashkenazi Jewish population” (Proceedings of the US National Academy of Sciences, 16222–16227, doi: 10.1073/pnas.1004381107) found that the “Ashkenazi Jewish (AJ) population . . . has a common Middle Eastern origin with other Jewish Diaspora populations” while concluding that the Ashkenazi Jewish population has had the most European admixture.

    A March 2012 study by Christopher L. Campbell et. al., titled “North African Jewish and non-Jewish populations form distinctive, orthogonal clusters” (Proceedings of the US National Academy of Sciences, doi: 10.1073/pnas.1204840109) found that genome-wide analysis of five North African Jewish groups (Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Djerban, and Libyan) “demonstrated distinctive North African Jewish population clusters with proximity to other Jewish populations.”

    Furthermore, the study showed, the Sephardic Jewish genome is “compatible with the history of North African Jews—founding during Classical Antiquity with proselytism of local populations, followed by genetic isolation with the rise of Christianity and then Islam, and admixture following the emigration of Sephardic Jews during the Inquisition.”

    Finally, this study added “These populations showed a high degree of endogamy and were part of a larger Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish group.”

    (*Endogamy: the practice of marrying within a specific ethnic group, rejecting others on such a basis as being unsuitable for marriage or for other close personal relationships.)

    In his book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People” (Oxford University Press, USA; May 2012), Harry Ostrer, a professor of Pathology and Genetics at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University and Director of Genetic and Genomic Testing at Montefiore Medical Center, Medicine, concluded that “Jews exhibit a distinctive genetic signature.” (Jews Are a ‘Race,’ Genes Reveal–Author Uncovers DNA Links Between Members of Tribe, The Jewish Daily Forward, May 04, 2012).

    Ostrer, who is also director of genetic and genomic testing at Montefiore Medical Center, said in his conclusion that “Jews are a homogeneous group with all the scientific trappings of what we used to call a race.”

    Ostrer also deals specifically with the Khazar theory. He pointed out that the findings from the Jewish HapMap Project (see below) completely refute “the theories that Ashkenazi Jews are the descendants of converted Khazars or Slavs.”(Jews: A religious group, people or race?, Jerusalem Post, 8/26/2012)

    The Jewish HapMap Project, a joint project of Albert Einstein College of Medicine and New York University School of Medicine, was created to “understand the structure of the genomes in Jewish populations” and is an outgrowth of the Human HapMap Project.

    According to this project, “Jewish populations are remarkable for maintaining continuous genetic, cultural, and religious traditions over 4000 years, despite residence all over the world.”

    Its findings, based on first hand DNA studies amongst Jewish populations around the globe, found no evidence to support a Central Asian DNA origin for Jewry.

    According to the Jerusalem Post, the “Jewish HapMap Project in New York City has so far shown “in exquisite detail what had been conjectured for a century. Jewish populations from the major Jewish Diaspora groups – Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Mizrahi – form a distinctive population cluster that is closely related to Semitic and European populations. Within this larger Jewish cluster, each of the Jewish populations formed its own subcluster.

    “A high degree of mixing of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Italian and Syrian Jews caused them to become more closely related to each other than they were to Middle Eastern, Iraqi and Iranian Jews. This genetic split seemed to have occurred about 2,500 years ago.” (Jews: A religious group, people or race?, Jerusalem Post, 8/26/2012)

    DNA Studies Find that Ashkenazim Jews have 30% European Admixture

    Both the Behar study (section 7 above) and the Atzmon study (section 8 above) were commented upon by the British former deputy editor of the journal Nature, and currently the scientific correspondent for the New York Times, Nicholas Wade, in an article in that newspaper as follows:

    “Jewish communities in Europe and the Middle East share many genes inherited from the ancestral Jewish population that lived in the Middle East some 3,000 years ago, even though each community also carries genes from other sources — usually the country in which it lives,” adding that a “major surprise from both surveys is the genetic closeness of the two Jewish communities of Europe, the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim.”

    Wade pointed out that the two studies “refute the suggestion made by the historian Shlomo Sand in his book ‘The Invention of the Jewish People’ that Jews have no common origin but are a miscellany of people in Europe and Central Asia who converted to Judaism at various times.

    “Jewish communities from Europe, the Middle East and the Caucasus all have substantial genetic ancestry that traces back to the Levant; Ethiopian Jews and two Judaic communities in India are genetically much closer to their host populations,” Wade wrote.

    “The shared genetic elements suggest that members of any Jewish community are related to one another as closely as are fourth or fifth cousins in a large population, which is about 10 times higher than the relationship between two people chosen at random off the streets of New York City.

    “Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East, the two surveys find. The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long.” (Studies Show Jews’ Genetic Similarity, Nicholas Wade, New York Times, June 9, 2010).
    Other Y-DNA:

    Maternal 6X Great Grandfather J1-ZS10441

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