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Thread: South Asians with Turkish/Turkic/Mongol descent thread

  1. #221
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    Sikh were viewed like good warriors.
    Last edited by Aben Aboo; 02-25-2021 at 09:45 PM.

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  3. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakistani View Post
    Found a photo of my great-great grandfather in the late 1800s:

     


    I've noticed that in many of these photos, the servants/guards appear to be Sikh (based off the turbans; please correct me if I'm wrong). Was it common for them to take up those professions?
    The pagg style is different from a Sikh. They certainly weren't working as servants but more as either guards or in army.

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  5. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    The pagg style is different from a Sikh. They certainly weren't working as servants but more as either guards or in army.
    Turbans were pretty standard in the British Indian army among both Hindu and Muslim soldiers during that period:


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  7. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Turbans were pretty standard in the British Indian army among both Hindu and Muslim soldiers during that period:

    Yes, but the turbans differed from Religion to Religion or tribe to tribe. I guess the stereotype of all Indians wear turbans comes from that too:

    Attachment 43554

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  9. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Yes, but the turbans differed from Religion to Religion or tribe to tribe. I guess the stereotype of all Indians wear turbans comes from that too:

    Attachment 43554
    I know Kashmiri pandits took to wearing turbans under Sikh and Dogra rule. I have pictures of my great and great great grandfathers wearing them. Next time I’m at my parents, I’ll get a hold of those pictures. The pagh style from my great great grandfather to my great grandfather is different, I’m wondering if that’s due to the transition from Sikh rule to dogra rule.
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    It really depended on the region, whether or not a turban differentiated more based on locality, dynasty or religion.

    If you take traditional East Punjab. Most aristocrats wore the same type of turban. Be it the Maharaja of Patiala, (muslim) Khalifa family of Patiala or Nawabs of Malerkotla.

    Nawab of Malerkotla :https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8043429777

    Maharajas of Kapurthala and Patiala: https://www.facebook.com/15768313092...KB9XLu&__xts__[0]=68.ARB44HCkbXnjaP5RGLGhnJJjYaOS3WTTx97Kdez_wNmcIH-tzKQgpqxngkj3LuzabAQvsNDV9l6tF6TF4HkWLyDik9rFA7KIZ 4MopBR9cQb8m5w02D1p5VMKDDOSbjX_JyvK18tjf2SXGTR0ohv Oa5yd2MUja3x6HqTi6sTwckTkIqZ8EUn-XjLPUDn_HfVu_OM1kxn6CbbJJcQY33kSd4ra0UpgQmRwV_ojrK eR73cSkwcazjcIiN1HhGutFt5TH9fMpRjG7ney6iiAi-ldvE5PJYFM2DvH1Y688z9n4V3Hrx8AxSB-OXY

    Sayyid Muslim Judge of Patiala :https://www.facebook.com/15768313092...N8Ptyc&__xts__[0]=68.ARD0iTommVg0HghuJpAT-Aa91O_Jxn5Hba-F5xK8E80Lc3qLNreM5tYcIMOAMVrKta6BMiT3Vzjzs4KbNvA2d tkCvkN89IuGktHMXLm8SEJOdPq9ye9IxY24PGsSjkqtimPOGOW Ej3AACA-Kdbc47vVsNh0mmS6Xdvn879g6Ph_KwmL5UClIpu2Cj0zzz82Rr-87yLC63l_koiHGBlhGxepE2m2rnvKTvJt99bK1U38_bnmSKdow gugsdcTZsVYF5A2PZ_7WPtHT1hxKn3iTXL7CCVyxbuU3p3YSSL TqBxDiLB8vlYMdltI

    However later with the rise of communal sentiments in Punjab you increasingly see muslims of even East Punjab adopt the Peshawari Pagri to better differentiate themselves. And this is the type of turban most pakistani Punjabis saw the colonial and immediately post colonial generation wear. But I think that this trend was actually started in the British Army where different style were used by regiments and then adopted by the masses with the rise of communal tension. Even if you look at an old drawing of the Nawabs of Bhawalpur (far removed from traditional Majha) its hard to tell whether he's muslim or sikh.

    Drawing of the Nawab of Bhawalpur, you'll have to scroll 2/3rd of the way down. http://www.pak101.com/c/forum/topic/...y_plz_comments

    In other places like Rajasthan and Maharashtra, turbans always distinguished dynasty, caste and religion. A Scinde wore modified turban to a Holkar. In Rajasthan the length of the tail of the turban often also signified their rank. Royals often wearing it to well below the lumbar region.

    Earlier In UP trends were heavily based on the courts of Awadh and Delhi where trends were often picked up from one another. I noticed from the paintings that we have in our family. That when the style of the turban changed from the classical one usually worn by Aurangzeb to the ones in which you often see Shuja ud daula and Asaf ud daula depicted. Our family too had adopted the same style of a circular turban that you often see Shah Alam II depicted in.

    We have an ancestor painted post humorously by his son -only a couple of years after his death. He's depicted in a very thin white linen Jama which is very long reaching well below the ankles, with the typical turban worn by Shuja ud daula (infact my ancestor in question was a contemporary of Shuja ud Daula). Its actually quite similar to this painting of asaf ud daula. https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-2729821. Which is a departure to the earlier mughal style where you had higher jama's where the pyjama was visible. And the turbans were less circular and more "laid back" as you can see here:https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-6211816

    But when the son who got his father painted travels to Rajashtan. he gets paintings made from the court painters of the Maharajas of Jaipur and Bikaner. These paintings include one for himself and another for his son. But in both these paintings the style of the turban and Jama revert to the Aurangzeb style. Because that was what was still vogue in Rajasthan at the time. The paintings of the then Maharajas of the respective states prove that Rajasthan had not adopted the UP styles. Probably reflecting how rajasthan was increasingly becoming distant from Mughal influence, because during Great Mughals time, the Rajasthanis were in sync in terms of fashion.

    If you were to compare the paintings from our time in UP with the family of Shuja ud daula or that in Delhi you would hardly be able to tell from clothes and turban alone. Even a much later painting of an ancestor in the 19th century showed little difference. The dress and turban was quite regional in its nature and not different based on religion and dynasty.

    In fact if you look at a painting of Akbar Shah II court you could not really tell who was and isn't hindu. Except for facial hair but some muslims also shaved their beards. http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O3...rousel-image=1

    Its not only UP and delhi that evolved from the aurangzeb style. Deccan too developed its own.

    (Also I have no idea how to fix the images to the post, hence the links)

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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    "...Struggle for supremacy- In the meantime the Ramgarhias and Kanhayas, who, as before explained, on the death of Adina Beg, had seized all the
    Doab south of Dinanagar, including Batala, Kalanaur .... They lost Batala for a short time after the Ghulluh Garah defeat ..It was not long, however, before the rival Misals fell out ;
    and the Batala tahsil is studded with the mud forts of the various Ramgarhia and Kanhaya chieftains, who seem to have been perpetually engaged in petty warfare, even when a death
    struggle for supremacy was not in progress between the confederacies. The Ramgarhia power was the stronger to the east, and that of the Kanhayas to the west. In the course of these
    struggles, Mallah Singh and Tara Singh were expelled from Batala and Kalanaur by Gurbakhsh Singh, son of Jai Singh Kanhaya, and, though Jassa Singh recovered Batala and surrounded it with a wall, he never retook Kalanaur. Eventually Jai Singh again prevailed, and drove Jassa Singh across the Sutlej, where he remained until 1783, when he was called in by Maha Singh Sukarchakia, son of Charat Singh and father of Ranjit Singh, to help him against the Kanhayas, with whom he had fallen out in consequence of a personal affront put upon him by Jai Singh, his old guardian, guide, and friend. A fierce battle was fought between the opposing forces near the tank of Achal, some four miles south-east of Batala, in which the Kanhayas were routed, and Gurbakhsh Singh son of Jai Singh, was slain .Jai Singh fled from the field and from Batala, whence Mai Sada Kaur, widow of Gurbaksh Singh escaped barefoot to Sayian a village about two miles off to the west. Jassa Singh held Batala for some years after this, although in 1781 he was assailed by a strong confederacy, cosisting of his ghuman ally Maha Singh, Sansar Chand Katoch, and the Rajas of Chamba and Nurpur in support of Jai Singh Kanhaya; but his power was on the wane before the growing ascendancy of Ranjit Singh, and Batala again fell into the hands of the Kanhayas and became their seat of Government. He eventually died at Rahila on the Beas in 1806, and two years afterwards in 1808, Ranjit Singh seized this place "

    The Ramgharia might have been a powerful misl. But I'm sorry it really does'nt compare to others. The Sukerchakia, Bhangis, Ahluwalia and Kanhaiya's were far more famous. When Shah Zaman came to Punjab ALL the misl leaders didn't want to fight and wanted to melt away. But Sada Kaur of Kanhaiya convinced Ranjit of Sukerchakia otherwise. (Source Kushwant Singh's biography of Ranjit Singh)

    I stand by my belief that the Ahluwalia's deserve the recognition they got. Jassa Singh Ahluwalia led ALL the Sikh's against Ahmed Shah Abidali (in no mean feat). See Page 9 of Kushwant Singh's biography of Ranjit Singh. And while you're there also pay attention to him mentioning the Phulkian's who he said had become collaborators (for the Afghans) and then saying: "that the other misls that mattered were: Kanhaya's. Nakkais, Ahluwalia and the Bhangis". As you see among the misls of note (Phulkian, Kanhaya, Nakkais, Ahluwalias and Bhangis) he didn't mention the Ramgharias. Coming more to Ahluwalia's " The Ahluwalia's were led by Fateh singh who was an able leader and because he was Jassa singh's successor, held in great esteem by sikhs. Ranjit decided to befriend him" One rarely comes across that sort of thing about Ramgharia's regardless of how powerful they were they didn't have a universal claim to "esteem" not on par with Ahluwalia's. The Ahluwalia's deserved their titles and recognition a 100%

    Yes they Ramgharia may have fought dogras and other invades. But by their very existential reality all the other sikhs misl also fought off invaders on a routine basis whether that was george thomas or gurkhas or Afghans the list is endless. Misls have always been egalitarian, the biggest proof is that a "Tarkhan Misl" actually exists, Ramgharia deserve their place in history, I dont think they're being downplayed. They are a misl that are neither very prominent nor very obscure with few deeds accomplished independent of other misls. And btw have you see the "Throne of Aurangzeb" its really just a slab of stone that he brought from Delhi, it's not like Nadir Shah taking the peacock throne away.
    I'm not sure what prompted you to compare the Sikh Misls in terms of power, as I don't think any of us claimed the Ramgharia Misl was the all mighty one. But there does seem to be a lot of in-factual conjecture and conclusions being made here.

    1.) First of all, you claim the Ramgharia Misl was inconsequential in comparison to the Kanhaiya and others. On what basis? In terms of sheer manpower, the Ramgharia along with the Bhangi and Nakkai yielded the largest cavalary. In terms of landholding and revenue, they exceeded the Kanhaiya's once again and were second only to the Bhangis, extracting "six to ten lakh rupees." Now, what's even more interesting is they were originally a Misl bifurcated from the preceeding Kanhaiya Misl, from which Jassa Singh Ramgharia took the reigns and overshadowed the latter.

    2.)You state that they had "few deeds accomplished independent of other misls", however fail to realize that was the entire purpose of the Misl system - they are meant to work in unison against foreign states/powers. And that's not to say that their own territories were not consolidated on their own, the expulsion of the afghan governor khwaja Obed in order to seize Batala and Kalanaur, the subjugation of Ghamand Chand, the durrani-appointed deputy in Katoch, and the subjugation of the Rajputs in the Hills were feats accomplished on their own.

    3.) If they were inconsequential, what forced the Kanhaiya's to ally with the Sukerchakia, Bhangis and Ahluwalias in an attempt to subdue them? Mohd. Latif references that they were encroaching on the revenue of the Kanhaiya's and were on track to match the Bhangis in terms of influence, forcing the other Misls to side with Kanhaiya's, who Purnima Dhavan states were overwhelmed with jealousy, to put an end to this.

    4.) Jassa Singh Ramgharia's defense at Ram Rauni is viewed as changing the entire course of Sikh influence in the Punjab as well is a defensive feat on its own, as per Dhavan, if it were not for him switching over to the side of the Sikhs who were besieged at Ram Rauni, neither would they have managed to escape from the afghan seizure without his use of sallying, nor would they have ever allied against adina beg, who was known to yield, flip-flop, pander to foreign powers to the detriment of the Sikhs.

    5.) Many contemporary and modern historians, including Moulvi Mohd. Din of Batala, Latif and Dhavan, do not share Kushwant Singh's views, and basing the opinion of a Misl's influence on a single statement by a historian is not conclusive at all, especially without context.

    6.) How does Shah Zaman invading Punjab render the Ramgharias as being inconsequential? He invaded the Western portion of Punjab, the bulk of Sukerchakia territory, which led them to seek support from the other Misls, notably the Bhangi and the Ramgharia, who both declined over disagreeing with Maharaja Ranjit Singh's assertion of being the ruler of Punjab. This infighting is not a proud moment for the Sikhs, but it doesn't conclude anything about the Ramgharia's strength as well.

    7.) To address your point about the marble slab, the Ramgharia Misl brought back only the marble slab of the Peacock throne for a reason. Like you mentioned, Nadir Shah, who attacked the Mughals and ended the delusion of Turco-Persian alliance that the Mughals and many nawabs harbored, wrested the original peacock throne with him, the throne of value in the eyes of Sikhs, as it was the one on which the Mughal rulers who martyred the Sikh Gurus were coronated on. The later one was of no worth, and the original one had been lost to history at this point. Dhavan states that Jassa Singh Ramgharia wrested the marble slab, as it was the one on which Aurangzeb was coronated on, and not the later throne, which held little to no worth for him, as Shah Alam II readily yielded to Jassa in the past.

    8.) Despite losing their territory in the battle against the Misls, the Ramgharia Misl still rebounded. Using Hansi and Hissar as a launchpad, they managed to take control of Northern Delhi (including parts of modern UP). Latif states that Shah Alam II presented Jassa with a peace offering in the form of valuable gifts delivered by an envoy and that the nawab of Meerut paid tribute to the Ramgharia. Dhavan further corroborates this, explaining that the settlements of western UP were pushed deeper into the heartland of UP in order to prevent falling prey to the raiding excursions by the Misl. And after the Sukerchakia and Kanhaiya relations soured, the Sukerchakia sought the support of the Ramgharia to essentially end the Kanhaiya Misl. If they were inconsequential, why would the Sukerchakia ask for their support? And the Ramgharia proved their mettle, because at the end of the Battle of Batala, the Kanhaiya Misl seized to exist, forcing Sada Kaur to make peace with the Sukerchakia through a marriage alliance, and the Ramgharia wrested their territory back which stretched from the Sutlej to the Beas, the bist doab of Jalandhar, the Hills, Hansi/Hissar. So in what way inconsequential?

    Sources:
    History of the Punjab, Latif.
    When Sparrows became Hawks, Dhavan.
    The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies, Singh and Fenech.

    Also I believe this is the wrong thread to discuss this, so if you want to take it any further, I think it would be best to move it into The Punjab thread.
    Last edited by desi; 02-28-2021 at 06:19 AM.

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    My mom's slightly higher South Asian admix and low Gedrosia makes me think that she has a connection to South Asia too. Her SA is around 3.5%, while her Gedrosia is about 11%. It's also important to note that she got the SA mostly from her mother, making my grandma around 5% South Asian. Turks rarely score higher than 2-3% SA, but when they do, the South Asian usually goes hand in hand with higher Gedrosia.

    I wonder if her South Asian admix is linked to her Central Asian ancestors (Mughal connection?) or if there is some Dom or Romani admix somewhere down the line. Has anyone got an idea what an elevated South Asian score in conjunction with low Gedrosia could indicate? She also has some South Asian matches @ gedmatch, while I have not spotted one South Asian match in the rest of my relative's results.

    Actually, I just noticed that one of them is a relative of a user I spotted on here: Khanbadoshi? And he is part Uzbek. Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Hi :-)
    Last edited by Ashina; 02-28-2021 at 05:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashina View Post
    My mom's slightly higher South Asian admix and low Gedrosia makes me think that she has a connection to South Asia too. Her SA is around 3.5%, while her Gedrosia is about 11%. It's also important to note that she got the SA mostly from her mother, making my grandma around 5% South Asian. Turks rarely score higher than 2-3% SA, but when they do, the South Asian usually goes hand in hand with higher Gedrosia.

    I wonder if her South Asian admix is linked to her Central Asian ancestors (Mughal connection?) or if there is some Dom or Romani admix somewhere down the line. Has anyone got an idea what an elevated South Asian score in conjunction with low Gedrosia could indicate? She also has some South Asian matches @ gedmatch, while I have not spotted one South Asian match in the rest of my relative's results.

    Actually, I just noticed that one of them is a relative of a user I spotted on here: Khanbadoshi? And he is part Uzbek. Interesting.
    Send PM to Khanbadoshi he is very much into dna but appears to be very busy lately. I think he is a doctor of some kind.

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    ^
    I will, thanks!

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