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Thread: South Asians with Turkish/Turkic/Mongol descent thread

  1. #121
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    Interesting; thanks for the sharing.

    On the euro matches, I'm in a similar boat: my father, sister and I all get full European matches up to 0.48%/32cm and some share multiple segments. I have no idea what that's about tbh; but I think it's fairly common for desis?

    On the Caucasian/Turkic/Iranian matches, I'm beginning to think these could be real, but distant, as subzero85 said.

    I also checked my paternal grandfather's matches for comparison. Interestingly, he doesn't get that many Azeri/caucasus matches; but he does get about 14 Iranian matches and a tonne of Afghans (like 30+). Curiously, the Iranians are almost all Kurds, and on googling their tribes/surnames I see that some of their forbears actually accompanied Nader Shah in his Indian campaign. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I do wonder whether there could be a link there..

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Interesting; thanks for the sharing.

    On the euro matches, I'm in a similar boat: my father, sister and I all get full European matches up to 0.48%/32cm and some share multiple segments. I have no idea what that's about tbh; but I think it's fairly common for desis?

    On the Caucasian/Turkic/Iranian matches, I'm beginning to think these could be real, but distant, as subzero85 said.

    I also checked my paternal grandfather's matches for comparison. Interestingly, he doesn't get that many Azeri/caucasus matches; but he does get about 14 Iranian matches and a tonne of Afghans (like 30+). Curiously, the Iranians are almost all Kurds, and on googling their tribes/surnames I see that some of their forbears actually accompanied Nader Shah in his Indian campaign. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I do wonder whether there could be a link there..
    One of my mom's Iranian matches has 2% South Asian and I wonder if her ancestors may have been the types that migrated to India and came back a few generations later bringing South Asian ancestry with them. Like Khomeini's family's reverse migration back, not sure if he was partially South Asian.

    In addition she has two Levantine Arab matches (Lebanese, Palestinian).

    Maybe you are related to one of Nader Shah's soldiers.

    I tested on an older chip (v3) compared to her (v4), but she has over three times as many matches as I do on 23andMe.
    Last edited by subzero85; 09-24-2020 at 03:49 PM.

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  5. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    One of my mom's Iranian matches has 2% South Asian and I wonder if her ancestors may have been the types that migrated to India and came back a few generations later bringing South Asian ancestry with them. Like Khomeini's family's reverse migration back, not sure if he was partially South Asian.

    In addition she has two Levantine Arab matches (Lebanese, Palestinian).

    Maybe you are related to one of Nader Shah's soldiers.

    I tested on an older chip (v3) compared to her (v4), but she has over three times as many matches as I do on 23andMe.
    Interesting stuff.

    Was back migration quite a common phenomenon amongst Iranian communities in the subcontinent/Awadh?

    I think the Nader Shah connection might be plausible in my grandad's case. It roughly fits with our family tradition, time-wise, and may also explain my grandad's elevated EEF/ENF admixture and matches in Afghanistan and NW Iran/Kurdistan.

    Will have to do some digging..

    If anyone knows of any good books/resource, please do let me know!

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  7. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Ali View Post
    Interesting stuff.

    Was back migration quite a common phenomenon amongst Iranian communities in the subcontinent/Awadh?

    I think the Nader Shah connection might be plausible in my grandad's case. It roughly fits with our family tradition, time-wise, and may also explain my grandad's elevated EEF/ENF admixture and matches in Afghanistan and NW Iran/Kurdistan.

    Will have to do some digging..

    If anyone knows of any good books/resource, please do let me know!
    I'm not sure how common it was, but there were several members of the Awadhi Shia Aristocracy that were settled or forced to relocate to Bengal by the British in the second half of the 19th Century, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion.

    I think this disruption would have motivated those with remaining connections to Iran (came within the past one-to-four generations) to reverse migrate and avoid being on the Brits radar.

    One of Khomeini's biographers thinks this is why Khomeini's grandfather moved back. Furthermore, I see this as one of the key events that brought migration to India to a halt for good as it became a less attractive destination.

    Awadh was one of the key states that joined the 1857 rebellion and paid a heavy price for it.
    Last edited by subzero85; 09-28-2020 at 01:33 PM.

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  9. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    I'm not sure how common it was, but there there were several of the Shia Aristocracy that were settled or forced to relocate to Bengal by the British in the second half of the 19th Century, in the aftermath of the 1857 rebellion.

    I think this disruption would have motivated those with remaining connections to Iran (came within the past one-to-four generations) to reverse migrate and avoid being on the Brits radar. One of Khomeini's biographers thinks this is why Khomeini's grandfather moved back. Furthermore, I see this as one of the key events that brought migration to India to a halt for good as it became a less attractive destination.

    Awadh was one of the key states that joined the 1857 rebellion and paid a heavy price for it.
    My great grandmother's stepmother belonged to Gardezi Sadaat, her distant relatives in Mewat, Haryana paid a heavy price for joining the the 1857 rebellion.

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  11. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    My great grandmother's stepmother belonged to Gardezi Sadaat, her distant relatives in Mewat, Haryana paid a heavy price for joining the the 1857 rebellion.
    I actually have a distant 23andMe relative that claims that their family had been relocated to Calcutta and that they played a role in sending Indian indentured servants to Trinidad and Tobago along with Guyana.

    Which I guess was their way of paying for joining the rebellion.
    Last edited by subzero85; 09-27-2020 at 10:15 PM.

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  13. #127
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    Hi! These are my gedmatch results including the Oracles. According to family history we are Bukhara Syeds from UP. We had an ancestor migrate to India from Bukhara as a Hakeem on my father’s side.

    Population
    S-Indian 41.71 Pct
    Baloch 33.56 Pct
    Caucasian 7.80 Pct
    NE-Euro 7.21 Pct
    SE-Asian 0.27 Pct
    Siberian 1.65 Pct
    NE-Asian 1.91 Pct
    Papuan 1.21 Pct
    American 0.47 Pct
    Beringian 0.92 Pct
    Mediterranean 3.16 Pct
    SW-Asian 0.14

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 bihari-muslim_harappa @ 3.303967
    2 bengali-brahmin_harappa @ 4.763437
    3 vaish_reich @ 6.125507
    4 karnataka-brahmin_harappa @ 6.139896
    5 maharashtrian_harappa @ 6.311943
    6 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu @ 6.512671
    7 up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 6.527250
    8 up-brahmin_harappa @ 6.895091
    9 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 6.919681
    10 meghawal_reich @ 6.987255
    11 gujarati-b_hapmap @ 7.537954
    12 brahmin-tamil-nadu_metspalu @ 7.751735
    13 gujarati_harappa @ 7.774919
    14 tn-brahmin_xing @ 7.968863
    15 up-muslim_harappa @ 8.126588
    16 rajasthani_harappa @ 8.298443
    17 iyer-brahmin_harappa @ 8.374345
    18 kerala_harappa @ 8.577709
    19 iyengar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.630077
    20 meena_metspalu @ 9.067969

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% kashmiri-pandit_reich +50% sri-lankan_harappa @ 1.923495


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% nepali_harappa +25% punjabi-arain_xing +25% tn-dalit_xing @ 1.803353


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 kalash_hgdp + kol_metspalu + nepali_harappa + sri-lankan_harappa @ 1.590223
    2 hallaki_reich + kalash_hgdp + nepali_harappa + sri-lankan_harappa @ 1.713621
    3 chamar_metspalu + goan_harappa + tajik_yunusbayev + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.719321
    4 ap-hyderabad_harappa + kashmiri-pandit_reich + nepali_harappa + sri-lankan_harappa @ 1.755807
    5 gujarati-patel_harappa + north-kannadi_chaubey + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + tajik_yunusbayev @ 1.765417
    6 gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich + tajik_yunusbayev + vaish_reich @ 1.773252
    7 chenchu_metspalu + nepali_harappa + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + up-muslim_harappa @ 1.777733
    8 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + gujarati-patel_harappa + hallaki_reich + tajik_yunusbayev @ 1.779786
    9 dharkar_metspalu + gujarati-b_hapmap + hallaki_reich + tajik_yunusbayev @ 1.780176
    10 kalash_hgdp + nepali_harappa + sri-lankan_harappa + up-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.791275
    11 brahmin-uttar-pradesh_metspalu + tajik_yunusbayev + tamil-vellalar_harappa + tamil-vellalar_harappa @ 1.791398
    12 hallaki_reich + kanjar_metspalu + meena_metspalu + tajik_yunusbayev @ 1.793215
    13 dharkar_metspalu + goan_harappa + tajik_yunusbayev + up-scheduled-caste_metspalu @ 1.801315
    14 dharkar_metspalu + goan_harappa + lodi_reich + tajik_yunusbayev @ 1.802880
    15 nepali_harappa + nepali_harappa + punjabi-arain_xing + tn-dalit_xing @ 1.803353
    16 chamar_metspalu + nepali_harappa + punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa + up-muslim_harappa @ 1.805135
    17 gujarati-patel_harappa + rajasthani-brahmin_harappa + tajik_yunusbayev + tn-dalit_xing @ 1.805160
    18 hallaki_reich + kashmiri_harappa + nepali_harappa + up-kshatriya_metspalu @ 1.807725
    19 gujarati-b_hapmap + meena_metspalu + tajik_yunusbayev + tn-dalit_xing @ 1.807816
    20 goan_harappa + lodi_reich + tajik_yunusbayev + up-muslim_metspalu @ 1.809083

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  15. #128
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    Will add my results here as *plausible* Turkic admixture. From my mom's side when they migrated from Delhi during the Delhi Sultanate times. Could be remnants of mixed Afghan/Khorasan ancestry. Honestly, I haven't even thought of possible Central Asian/Turkic ancestry until one of the group G25 runs showed I had 13% total of Kalash and Burusho and this 23andme update.

    23andme: 1.6% Central Asian + 0.2% Chinese + 0.1% Manchurian and Mongolian


    Highlighting relevant components in Harappa. Note the NE Asian without any noticeable SE Asian.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 47.61
    2 Baloch 30.04
    3 Caucasian 6.36
    4 SW-Asian 4.47
    5 NE-Euro 2.92
    6 NE-Asian 2.13
    7 E-African 2
    8 Siberian 1.46
    9 SE-Asian 0.98
    10 Papuan 0.66
    11 American 0.61
    12 Beringian 0.52

    13 Mediterranean 0.15
    14 San 0.08
    15 Pygmy 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 kerala-christian (harappa) 5.18
    2 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 5.8
    3 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.98
    4 up (harappa) 5.99
    5 rajasthani (harappa) 6.38
    6 tamil (harappa) 6.39
    7 bihari (harappa) 6.45
    8 cochin-jew (behar) 6.55
    9 caribbean-indian (harappa) 6.91
    10 maharashtrian (harappa) 7.23
    11 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 7.28
    12 sri-lankan (harappa) 7.37
    13 bihari-muslim (harappa) 7.55
    14 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 7.64
    15 ap-brahmin (xing) 7.68
    16 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 7.74
    17 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 8.1
    18 srivastava (reich) 8.26
    19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 8.31
    20 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 8.34

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 93.5% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.5% ethiopian-jew (behar) @ 2.48
    2 93.5% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.5% ethiopian (behar) @ 2.52
    3 93.4% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.6% tygray (pagani) @ 2.56
    4 93.5% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.5% amhara (pagani) @ 2.6
    5 92.6% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 7.4% qatari (henn2012) @ 2.62
    6 87.5% tharu (metspalu) + 12.5% yemenese (behar) @ 2.67
    7 93.6% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.4% afar (pagani) @ 2.67
    8 91% tamil (harappa) + 9% yemenese (behar) @ 2.73
    9 91.5% tamil (harappa) + 8.5% egyptian (behar) @ 2.77
    10 89.6% tharu (metspalu) + 10.4% yemen-jew (behar) @ 2.78
    11 93.2% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.8% bedouin (hgdp) @ 2.78
    12 94.1% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 5.9% somali (harappa) @ 2.84
    13 93.9% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 6.1% oromo (pagani) @ 2.85
    14 91.5% tamil (harappa) + 8.5% egypt (henn2012) @ 2.86
    15 77.3% naidu (reich) + 22.7% turkmen (yunusbayev) @ 2.89
    16 92.1% ap-hyderabad (harappa) + 7.9% yemenese (behar) @ 2.89
    17 88.3% tharu (metspalu) + 11.7% egyptian (behar) @ 2.9
    18 91.7% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 8.3% palestinian (harappa) @ 2.9
    19 91.8% kerala-muslim (harappa) + 8.2% syrian (behar) @ 2.93
    20 91.4% tamil (harappa) + 8.6% jordanian (behar) @ 2.93

    MyHeritage V2 G25 scaled

    Target: misanthropy_scaled
    Distance: 1.6104% / 0.01610442
    90.6 South_Asian
    6.6 Yemenite_Jewish
    1.2 Mongolian
    1.0 Maasai
    0.6 Ethiopian_Jewish

    Supreeeme AncestryDNA G25 model scaled

    Target: misanthropy_scaled
    Distance: 2.1532% / 0.02153203 | ADC: 0.25x
    51.2 Northern_&_Western_India
    35.2 Southern_&_Eastern_India
    7.0 Burusho
    4.4 Middle_East
    2.2 Ethiopia_&_Eritrea

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  17. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by misanthropy View Post
    MyHeritage V2 G25 scaled

    Target: misanthropy_scaled
    Distance: 1.6104% / 0.01610442
    90.6 South_Asian
    6.6 Yemenite_Jewish
    1.2 Mongolian
    1.0 Maasai
    0.6 Ethiopian_Jewish

    Supreeeme AncestryDNA G25 model scaled

    Target: misanthropy_scaled
    Distance: 2.1532% / 0.02153203 | ADC: 0.25x
    51.2 Northern_&_Western_India
    35.2 Southern_&_Eastern_India
    7.0 Burusho
    4.4 Middle_East
    2.2 Ethiopia_&_Eritrea
    Gave a go with my coordinates for those models:

    MyHeritage

    Target: paksitani_scaled
    Distance: 1.9372% / 0.01937208
    83.4 South_Asian
    6.8 Yemenite_Jewish
    5.6 Irish_Scottish_Welsh
    4.2 Mongolian

    Supreme Ancestry

    Target: pakistani_scaled
    Distance: 2.0496% / 0.02049568
    82.6 Northern_&_Western_India
    6.2 Middle_East
    5.2 Ireland_&_Scotland
    3.4 Northern_Asia
    1.6 Japan
    0.8 Mongolia_&_Central_Asia-North
    0.2 Melanesia

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  19. #130
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    Recently returned from Pakistan. The highlight of my tour was by far the visit to my great great grandfather's final resting place. The whole place was steeped in Sufism, really quite beautiful. Sharing a few pics in case of interest. He was my paternal grandfather's paternal grandfather but we are unsure of his own ethnic background - hence how I got into DNA testing in the first place!

    image0.jpeg

    IMG_3018.jpg

    IMG_3021.jpg

    IMG_3040.jpg

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