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Thread: South Asians with Turkish/Turkic/Mongol descent thread

  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashina View Post
    My mom's slightly higher South Asian admix and low Gedrosia makes me think that she has a connection to South Asia too. Her SA is around 3.5%, while her Gedrosia is about 11%. It's also important to note that she got the SA mostly from her mother, making my grandma around 5% South Asian. Turks rarely score higher than 2-3% SA, but when they do, the South Asian usually goes hand in hand with higher Gedrosia.

    I wonder if her South Asian admix is linked to her Central Asian ancestors (Mughal connection?) or if there is some Dom or Romani admix somewhere down the line. Has anyone got an idea what an elevated South Asian score in conjunction with low Gedrosia could indicate? She also has some South Asian matches @ gedmatch, while I have not spotted one South Asian match in the rest of my relative's results.

    Actually, I just noticed that one of them is a relative of a user I spotted on here: Khanbadoshi? And he is part Uzbek. Interesting.
    I never knew Turks had south Asian dna very interesting

  2. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashina View Post
    ^
    I will, thanks!
    You can also post all those kits' results here including those from gedmatch.com.

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  4. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by maroco View Post
    I never knew Turks had south Asian dna very interesting
    Yeap, around 1-2% usually. So my mom/grandmotherís score and matches hint to a connection beyond the standard Central Asian/Oghuz link. I added some gedmatch calculator results in case it helps.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  6. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    You can also post all those kits' results here including those from gedmatch.com.
    Re-upload (all above 10cm):
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Ashina; 02-28-2021 at 05:46 PM.

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  8. #235
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    Hyderabad State Mughal Empire
    Can an admin please move the Punjab related discussion from pages 18-23 to elsewhere? Skimmed through it and it has very little to do with the purpose of this thread.

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  10. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashina;
    Yea, I wanted to post them here but I wasn't sure if I should (some people are wary with their kit nos). But these are the ones above 10 cm:

    BG5
    BE7
    M4
    AN0
    LP1

    ]
    If those are their kit #s please remove the kit #s as you cannot post their kit #s without kit owner's permission, it is against the rules of this site, but leave rest of the information here and identify the kits in a different way like BG, BG75 or BG......75 etc. Thanks.
    Last edited by Jatt1; 02-28-2021 at 01:37 PM.

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    ^Removed them, will repost later!

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  13. #238
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    https://journals.openedition.org/asiecentrale/480

    This paper's main focus is Persians but it has a table that shows Turkish groups that migrated to India in the 16th-18th centuries.

    Tribe name Count
    Afshar 2
    Zu’l-Qadr 2
    Qaramanlu 3
    Qara Qoyunlu 5
    Ostajalu 2
    Safavi 10
    Unknown 9

    The Nawabs of Awadh claimed descent from the Qara Qoyunlu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Koyunlu

    Specifically, all of them are claimed to be descendants of Qara Yusuf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qara_Yusuf

    I see one Qara Qoyunlu result as a J-M172: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

    So I'm extremely curious what the Y-DNA of the Nawabs of Awadh is.
    Last edited by subzero85; 02-28-2021 at 03:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by desi View Post
    I'm not sure what prompted you to compare the Sikh Misls in terms of power, as I don't think any of us claimed the Ramgharia Misl was the all mighty one. But there does seem to be a lot of in-factual conjecture and conclusions being made here.

    1.) First of all, you claim the Ramgharia Misl was inconsequential in comparison to the Kanhaiya and others. On what basis? In terms of sheer manpower, the Ramgharia along with the Bhangi and Nakkai yielded the largest cavalary. In terms of landholding and revenue, they exceeded the Kanhaiya's once again and were second only to the Bhangis, extracting "six to ten lakh rupees." Now, what's even more interesting is they were originally a Misl bifurcated from the preceeding Kanhaiya Misl, from which Jassa Singh Ramgharia took the reigns and overshadowed the latter.

    2.)You state that they had "few deeds accomplished independent of other misls", however fail to realize that was the entire purpose of the Misl system - they are meant to work in unison against foreign states/powers. And that's not to say that their own territories were not consolidated on their own, the expulsion of the afghan governor khwaja Obed in order to seize Batala and Kalanaur, the subjugation of Ghamand Chand, the durrani-appointed deputy in Katoch, and the subjugation of the Rajputs in the Hills were feats accomplished on their own.

    3.) If they were inconsequential, what forced the Kanhaiya's to ally with the Sukerchakia, Bhangis and Ahluwalias in an attempt to subdue them? Mohd. Latif references that they were encroaching on the revenue of the Kanhaiya's and were on track to match the Bhangis in terms of influence, forcing the other Misls to side with Kanhaiya's, who Purnima Dhavan states were overwhelmed with jealousy, to put an end to this.

    4.) Jassa Singh Ramgharia's defense at Ram Rauni is viewed as changing the entire course of Sikh influence in the Punjab as well is a defensive feat on its own, as per Dhavan, if it were not for him switching over to the side of the Sikhs who were besieged at Ram Rauni, neither would they have managed to escape from the afghan seizure without his use of sallying, nor would they have ever allied against adina beg, who was known to yield, flip-flop, pander to foreign powers to the detriment of the Sikhs.

    5.) Many contemporary and modern historians, including Moulvi Mohd. Din of Batala, Latif and Dhavan, do not share Kushwant Singh's views, and basing the opinion of a Misl's influence on a single statement by a historian is not conclusive at all, especially without context.

    6.) How does Shah Zaman invading Punjab render the Ramgharias as being inconsequential? He invaded the Western portion of Punjab, the bulk of Sukerchakia territory, which led them to seek support from the other Misls, notably the Bhangi and the Ramgharia, who both declined over disagreeing with Maharaja Ranjit Singh's assertion of being the ruler of Punjab. This infighting is not a proud moment for the Sikhs, but it doesn't conclude anything about the Ramgharia's strength as well.

    7.) To address your point about the marble slab, the Ramgharia Misl brought back only the marble slab of the Peacock throne for a reason. Like you mentioned, Nadir Shah, who attacked the Mughals and ended the delusion of Turco-Persian alliance that the Mughals and many nawabs harbored, wrested the original peacock throne with him, the throne of value in the eyes of Sikhs, as it was the one on which the Mughal rulers who martyred the Sikh Gurus were coronated on. The later one was of no worth, and the original one had been lost to history at this point. Dhavan states that Jassa Singh Ramgharia wrested the marble slab, as it was the one on which Aurangzeb was coronated on, and not the later throne, which held little to no worth for him, as Shah Alam II readily yielded to Jassa in the past.

    8.) Despite losing their territory in the battle against the Misls, the Ramgharia Misl still rebounded. Using Hansi and Hissar as a launchpad, they managed to take control of Northern Delhi (including parts of modern UP). Latif states that Shah Alam II presented Jassa with a peace offering in the form of valuable gifts delivered by an envoy and that the nawab of Meerut paid tribute to the Ramgharia. Dhavan further corroborates this, explaining that the settlements of western UP were pushed deeper into the heartland of UP in order to prevent falling prey to the raiding excursions by the Misl. And after the Sukerchakia and Kanhaiya relations soured, the Sukerchakia sought the support of the Ramgharia to essentially end the Kanhaiya Misl. If they were inconsequential, why would the Sukerchakia ask for their support? And the Ramgharia proved their mettle, because at the end of the Battle of Batala, the Kanhaiya Misl seized to exist, forcing Sada Kaur to make peace with the Sukerchakia through a marriage alliance, and the Ramgharia wrested their territory back which stretched from the Sutlej to the Beas, the bist doab of Jalandhar, the Hills, Hansi/Hissar. So in what way inconsequential?

    Sources:
    History of the Punjab, Latif.
    When Sparrows became Hawks, Dhavan.
    The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies, Singh and Fenech.

    Also I believe this is the wrong thread to discuss this, so if you want to take it any further, I think it would be best to move it into The Punjab thread.
    I did not say that Shah Zaman invading punjab rendered the ramgharias as inconsequential. In fact you've repeated "inconsequential" so many times I've had to go back to find that I've never used it.

    The original contention was that the Ramgharia were underrated partly based on their caste. And for the reasons I've already given. I've essentially said that Misls have always been egalitarian and the Ramgharia deserve their place in history. Nowhere have I said that they were inconsequential. Now if you're trying to justify their place in history as being consequential because you feel that they are currently viewed as "in consequential" then thats something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by subzero85 View Post
    https://journals.openedition.org/asiecentrale/480

    This paper's main focus is Persians but it has a table that shows Turkish groups that migrated to India in the 16th-18th centuries.

    Tribe name Count
    Afshar 2
    Zu’l-Qadr 2
    Qaramanlu 3
    Qara Qoyunlu 5
    Ostajalu 2
    Safavi 10
    Unknown 9

    The Nawabs of Awadh claimed descent from the Qara Qoyunlu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Koyunlu

    Specifically, all of them are claimed to be descendants of Qara Yusuf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qara_Yusuf

    I see one Qara Qoyunlu result as a J-M172: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized

    So I'm extremely curious what the Y-DNA of the Nawabs of Awadh is.
    Quli Qutb Shah migrated to Delhi with his uncle, Allah-Quli, some of his relatives and friends in the beginning of the 16th century, from Hamadan Province—(now in Iran then it was ruled by his ancestral Turkish tribe) later served with Bahmani sultan and declared independence when Bahmani lost to Vijaynagar and took over Golconda kingdom (part of Kakatiya dynasty). However when Aurangazeb took over the Golconda and annexed it with Nizam shahis these were all probably killed. Interesting the Nizam shahi also claim Turcomen origin from Samarkand. The recent Nizams married into royal families in Turkey too. Maybe they are J2a
    Y: H1a1a4b3b1a8 Yfull id-> YF83218
    Medals->Hidden Content
    mtDNA:U2a1a* extras->11368C 16093A 8860A (195T) (309.1C) (315.1C)

    G25 Ancients Dist 1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 88.4 MAR_Taforalt 2.6NPL_Mebrak 5
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA 4 Hidden Content

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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