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Thread: Are Cypriots Greek at all?

  1. #11
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    What are Turkish Cypriots - local Greeks who converted or genuine descendants of Anatolian Turkish settlers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Maybe so, but couldn't they also have been Anatolian BA-like before Phoenician colonization?
    How do you explain their Natufian increase? Some Cypriot Individuals shifting closer to Lebanese and Druze.While others are indeed more Anatolian BA/Aegean like. Do you think their Levant admixture is similar to Greek islanders/Cretans? BA anatolians are less Natufian admixed than modern Cypriots thought.
    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 1.5780% / 0.01578004
    40.2 TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    32.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    16.2 Levant_Baqah_BA
    11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2


    Target: Ioannis_scaled
    Distance: 2.8082% / 0.02808208
    67.2 Greek_Trabzon
    24.2 Samaritan
    7.4 Georgian_Imer
    1.2 Sardinian

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuaMan View Post
    What are Turkish Cypriots - local Greeks who converted or genuine descendants of Anatolian Turkish settlers?
    It isn't really an either-or question. They seem to plot closer to Greek Cypriots as opposed to Anatolian Turks, but that doesn't negate the possibility of genuine Anatolian Turkish admix either.

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    Regarding Cypriots, there was a study of paternal lines: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0179474

    Y-chromosomal analysis of Greek Cypriots reveals a primarily common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry with Turkish Cypriots

    Alexandros Heraclides , Evy Bashiardes , Eva Fernández-Domínguez, Stefania Bertoncini, Marios Chimonas, Vasilis Christofi, Jonathan King, Bruce Budowle, Panayiotis Manoli, Marios A. Cariolou

    PLOS

    Published: June 16, 2017
    https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

    Abstract

    Genetics can provide invaluable information on the ancestry of the current inhabitants of Cyprus. A Y-chromosome analysis was performed to (i) determine paternal ancestry among the Greek Cypriot (GCy) community in the context of the Central and Eastern Mediterranean and the Near East; and (ii) identify genetic similarities and differences between Greek Cypriots (GCy) and Turkish Cypriots (TCy). Our haplotype-based analysis has revealed that GCy and TCy patrilineages derive primarily from a single gene pool and show very close genetic affinity (low genetic differentiation) to Calabrian Italian and Lebanese patrilineages. In terms of more recent (past millennium) ancestry, as indicated by Y-haplotype sharing, GCy and TCy share much more haplotypes between them than with any surrounding population (7–8% of total haplotypes shared), while TCy also share around 3% of haplotypes with mainland Turks, and to a lesser extent with North Africans. In terms of Y-haplogroup frequencies, again GCy and TCy show very similar distributions, with the predominant haplogroups in both being J2a-M410, E-M78, and G2-P287. Overall, GCy also have a similar Y-haplogroup distribution to non-Turkic Anatolian and Southwest Caucasian populations, as well as Cretan Greeks. TCy show a slight shift towards Turkish populations, due to the presence of Eastern Eurasian (some of which of possible Ottoman origin) Y-haplogroups. Overall, the Y-chromosome analysis performed, using both Y-STR haplotype and binary Y-haplogroup data puts Cypriot in the middle of a genetic continuum stretching from the Levant to Southeast Europe and reveals that despite some differences in haplotype sharing and haplogroup structure, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots share primarily a common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry.


    I am not aware of autosomal analyses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracow View Post
    They speak Greek, but they don't seem to be from Greek DNA.

    Target: Cypriot
    Distance: 7.4674% / 7.46740889
    83.4 Lebanese_Christian
    16.6 Greek

    Distance to: Cypriot
    9.18185167 Lebanese_Christian
    13.45852889 Samaritan
    20.65197811 Armenian_West
    24.81113460 Armenian_East
    27.10097853 GR_Peloponese
    28.01070510 Greek
    28.47335850 GR_Macedonia
    29.34434699 Greek_Thessaly


    Does this mean that they are native Levantines who somehow began to speak Greek?
    Here is one model I ran with nMonte3 and Vahaduo:

    nMonte3:
    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Palestinian_Beit_Sahour                Armenian           Sicilian_East 
                   3.668093                5.181980                5.317600 
           Russian_Smolensk 
                  20.102965 
    
    [1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
    [1] "penalty= 0.001"
    [1] "Ncycles= 1000"
    
    [...]
    
    [1] "distance%=1.4226"
    
    	 Cypriot
    
    Palestinian_Beit_Sahour,52.2
    Sicilian_East,26
    Armenian,20.6
    Russian_Smolensk,1.2
    Vahaduo:
    Code:
    Distance to:	Cypriot
    0.03668093	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.05181980	Armenian
    0.05317600	Sicilian_East
    0.20102965	Russian_Smolensk
    
    Target: Cypriot
    Distance: 1.2765% / 0.01276507
    46.6	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    34.8	Sicilian_East
    18.6	Armenian
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuaMan View Post
    What are Turkish Cypriots - local Greeks who converted or genuine descendants of Anatolian Turkish settlers?
    A mix of local Greeks and Anatolian Turks. They plot between two, closer to local Greeks.

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     Onur Dincer (06-15-2020)

  11. #17
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    Yes we Cypriots are Greeks if we choose to be, which actually includes the vast majority of the Cypriot Greek population. The Greek nation (like many others) has never been a monolith and certainly Cypriot Greeks do not have the Slav, Vlach, or Arvanite input of continental Greeks. My nearest proximity matches are consistently to the Dodecanese. I could post examples, but I don't wish to because as I have stated above, it is our choice to feel Greek. That's all that matters. In terms of specific populations, I am also very close to Romaniote Jews (one PCA even plots me identically to a particular Romaniote). And yet I am not a Jew and he or she is not a Cypriot Greek.

    Ethnic identity is a social construct based on certain dynamic essentialist factors. Greek has been spoken in Cyprus since the Late Bronze Age, and during the the First Millenium BCE, the majority of the City Kingdoms were Greek speaking. The linguistic continuity continued throughout Late Antiquity, Byzantium, Medieval and Modern history. I personally am also extremely proud of the Canaanite input via the Phoenicians and Maronites, but that does not change our ethnic identity by one Greek iota. We have a shared language, religion, customs, cuisine, oral traditions and music. I could go on at length but I don't need to because we are as much a part of Hellenism as my Pontian, Epirote, Zakynthian, Cretan, and Cappadocian brothers. And what does it matter that the Pontians are the most genetic outliers of all Greeks? They are an integral part of the fabric of what it is to be 'Greek'.

    Would you challenge the ethnic identity of Italians? Even though southern Italians and Cypriots share significant genetic signatures that the former don't have with northerners? Are we really not comprehending the fact that southern Italians, Aegean islanders, Cretans and Cypriots are part of a recognised Mediterranean genetic continuum?

    I would never dream of challenging the Arab identity of those who choose to possess one. Those Lebanese that choose to feel 'Arab' are accordingly part of the same 'imagined community' as say Moroccans, to use Benedict Anderson's phrase. Those Lebanese who don't feel Arab are not. It's quite simple really. There are a growing number of Arabic-speakers in Lebanon who see themselves as Levantine Greeks. I say, "welcome to the club, the more the merrier". Mizrahi, Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews are all part of the wider Jewish community whatever their genetic differences. I don't have one Anglo-Saxon gene in my body but am proudly British, in addition to anything else. Can someone possibly challenge that? Nor would I dream of challenging the Turkish ethnic identity of my Turkish Cypriot friends who plot closer to Greek Cypriots than to Anatolian Turks.

    One has to be particularly careful, especially in these difficult times, to use racial or genetic profiling to tell others what they are or are not. Most of us will not accept ethnic designations imposed upon us by others through their anachronistic colonial mindset. The question in the way it has been phrased is offensive. There are, however, other genetics fora out there where this type of question constitutes the staple diet of members. Anthrogenica has never been one of them.
    Last edited by Andrewid; 06-15-2020 at 12:17 AM.

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    What matters about the various Greek (Greek/Romaios/Rum Orthodox Christian) groups is that they are genetically the most native modern populations of the historical regions they are from. When I say most native I am comparing them with the various Muslim, Jewish and other religious (e.g., the Druze) communities of their respective historical regions primarily, be they Turkish-speaking, Arabic-speaking, Greek-speaking or some other language-speaking. The Armenians of Greater Armenia, the Assyrians of Northern Mesopotamia and the various local Christian communities of the various other regions of the Near East are usually like the Greeks in that respect.
    Last edited by Onur Dincer; 06-15-2020 at 01:02 AM.
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    Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey
    mtDNA: X2e2a; Drama, Greece
    Maternal Y-DNA: R1a>Y40>YP294>YP4866; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    What matters about the various Greek (Greek/Romaios/Rum Orthodox Christian) groups is that they are genetically the most native modern populations of the historical regions they are from. When I say most native I am comparing them with the various Muslim, Jewish and other religious (e.g., the Druze) communities of their respective historical regions primarily, be they Turkish-speaking, Arabic-speaking, Greek-speaking or some other language-speaking. Armenians of Greater Armenia, Assyrians of Northern Mesopotamia and the various local Christian communities of the various other regions of the Near East are usually like Greeks in that respect.
    Continuing where I left off. So the Cypriot Greeks are as Greek as it gets in that sense as they are both the genetically most native modern community of Cyprus and of recent Greek/Romaios/Rum Orthodox Christian background.
    Last edited by Onur Dincer; 06-15-2020 at 01:01 AM.
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    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

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    Even in the Balkan Peninsula the local Greeks are among the genetically most native modern communities along with the Albanians since they both have the least amount of Slavic admixture among the modern local Balkan communities and lack Turkic admixture.
    Last edited by Onur Dincer; 06-15-2020 at 01:02 AM.
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    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5; Razgrad, Bulgaria
    Father's maternal Y-DNA: R1b>P312>U152>L2>Z41150>DF90>FGC14641>FGC32041; Nigde, Turkey

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