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Thread: Are Cypriots Greek at all?

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    As for the "genetically closest" (relatively-speaking) modern populations to the various groups of the Central Asian-admixed modern Anatolian Turks, that is a function of the genetic algorithms used to measure genetic distances, not because they really have ancestry from those populations (which they mostly do not).
    I was obviously not referring to IBD sharing, and I'm very well aware that Anatolian Turks don't descend from those populations. Do you see Azerbaijanis, Iranians or Caucasians in the nMonte models I've posted? You don't need to correct what is not incorrect.

    My point is clear. The migration of Turks has given rise to a new genetic profile in Anatolia that no other ethnic group closely resembles. The closest one was an Iron Age Anatolian sample (TUR_IA:MA2198), and I'm still not sure if she is a mislabeled Anatolian Turk or a Cimmerian-admixed Iron Age Anatolian.


    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    whereas formerly even the Turkish-speaking Muslims preferred to identify themselves based on their province, region or, for the nomadic or recently settled ones, tribe, or simply called themselves Muslim, and tended to avoid calling themselves Turk (which then had nomadic or rustic associations and was generally abhorred).
    You can't cite a solid source for your claim that being Turk was generally abhorred during the Ottoman period. This myth is almost entirely based on this quote. Such labels can indeed be found in the Ottoman accounts and literature, but they were mostly used to refer to "disobedient" and "heterodox" Turks (Qizilbash) who were pro-Safavid. Pro-Ottoman Turks were not subject to such insults, instead, they were praised. People from rural areas were always looked upon by urban dwellers regardless of their ethnic backgrounds. There are records of Albanian and Kurdish peasants being not allowed to enter Istanbul for example.

    The term "Turk" was used without hesitation by Ottoman historians throughout centuries to refer to both the Ottoman dynasty and ordinary Turks.

    Quoted directly from Ottoman historians:
     

    Hoca Saadettin Efendi refers to Shahqulu's pro-Safavid tribe in Teke/southwest Anatolia as "pis Türkler/etrâk-ı na-pak" (dirty Turks). While referring to pro-Ottoman Turks he uses the phrase "Türk yiğitleri" (Turkish heroes).

    • "Başına tac aldı çıktı ol pelîd/ İtdi bî-idrak etrâkı mürîd"
    Hoca Saadettin Efendi on Shah Ismail and his Turkish followers (bi-idrak etrak - "unperceptive, ignorant Turks")

    • Vakıat-ı Sultan Cem (15th century) refers to Cem Sultan as "Türk Beği'nin oğlu" (son of the Turkish Beg).

    • "Biz anda nice varalım idi ki Riga Fransa şehrine Türk ayağın basduğın istemezmiş ben hod bir mahbus kişiyin benüm elimden ne gelür?"
    Vakıat-ı Sultan Cem (15th century)

    Tâcizâde Cafer Çelebi refers to Mehmed II's army as "victorious Turkish army."

    Solakzade (17th century) refers to Cem Sultan as "son of the Turk who conquered Constantinople" and "son of the Turkish padishah."

    • "Bunları Türk’e verelim. Türkçe öğrensinler. Bunları dahi çeri edelim dedi. Tamam ki Müsülman oldılar, Türk bunları nice yıllar kullandı. Andan kapuya getirdiler. Akbörk geydürdiler. Adın ezelçeri iken yeniçeri kodılar"
    Aşıkpazade (15th century) on janissary recruits and Turkish families who raised them

    • "Konur Hisarı’nın tekfuruna Kalakonya derler idi. Haylı bahadır kafir idi. Türk kim Rumeli’ne geçti, ol kafir hiç at arkasından inmedi"
    Aşıkpaşazade (15. century) on the Eastern Roman resistance in Rumelia

    • "Ve çok köyler bu Türk kavmını gördüler. Müsülman oldular.”
    Aşıkpaşazade (15. century) on the Turkish advancement in Rumelia

    • "Eğer elçiye ölüm olsaydı, fil’hal seni depelerdim. Ol melun bunun gibi lâf ü güzâf ursa, acebmi ki İslâm kılıcın görmemişdür. Kimse tabancasını yemeyen, kendü tabancasın demürden sanur. Ve kedi karanu evde kendüyi arslan tevehhüm eder. İnşallah ana Türk erliğin gösterem."
    Neşri, Murad I Hüdavendigar

    •"Ben bu Türk'ü Ungurus ile ve Leh ve Çeh ile tutuşturayım."
    Anonymous, gazavatname. The Eastern Roman emperor supposedly intends to start a war between Turks and Hungarians-Slavs

    Aşıkpaşazade and other Ottoman historians don't hesitate to trace the origin of the dynasty to the mythological khagan of the Turks (Oghuz Khagan).
    Last edited by Alkaevli; 06-25-2020 at 02:23 AM.
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  3. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    I was obviously not referring to IBD sharing, and I'm very well aware that Anatolian Turks don't descend from those populations. Do you see Azerbaijanis, Iranians or Caucasians in the nMonte models I've posted? You don't need to correct what is not incorrect.

    My point is clear. The migration of Turks has given rise to a new genetic profile in Anatolia that no other ethnic group closely resembles. The closest one was an Iron Age Anatolian sample (TUR_IA:MA2198), and I'm still not sure if she is a mislabeled Anatolian Turk or a Cimmerian-admixed Iron Age Anatolian.
    I did not write them to refute your statements. I did not even quote them. I was making an explanation for people who do not know or are new to the subject as too often I encounter some misconceptions about Turkish genetics (also about Greek genetics). I already know and understand what you say. But it was not a reply to you, but written for people with less knowledge on Turkish genetics.

    You can't cite a solid source for your claim that being Turk was generally abhorred during the Ottoman period. This myth is almost entirely on this quote. Such labels can indeed be found in the Ottoman accounts and literature, but they were mostly used to refer to "disobedient" and "heterodox" Turks (Qizilbash) who were pro-Safavid. Pro-Ottoman Turks were not subject to such insults, instead, they were praised. People from rural areas were always looked upon by urban dwellers regardless of their ethnic backgrounds. There are records of Albanian and Kurdish peasants being not allowed to enter Istanbul for example.

    The term "Turk" was used without hesitation by Ottoman historians throughout centuries to refer to both the Ottoman dynasty and ordinary Turks.

    Quoted directly from Ottoman historians:
     

    Hoca Saadettin Efendi refers to Shahqulu's pro-Safavid tribe in Teke/southwest Anatolia as "pis Türkler/etrâk-ı na-pak" (dirty Turks). While referring to pro-Ottoman Turks he uses the phrase "Türk yiğitleri" (Turkish heroes).

    • "Başına tac aldı çıktı ol pelîd/ İtdi bî-idrak etrâkı mürîd"
    Hoca Saadettin Efendi on Shah Ismail and his Turkish followers (bi-idrak etrak - "unperceptive, ignorant Turks")

    • Vakıat-ı Sultan Cem (15th century) refers to Cem Sultan as "Türk Beği'nin oğlu" (son of the Turkish Beg).

    • "Biz anda nice varalım idi ki Riga Fransa şehrine Türk ayağın basduğın istemezmiş ben hod bir mahbus kişiyin benüm elimden ne gelür?"
    Vakıat-ı Sultan Cem (15th century)

    Tâcizâde Cafer Çelebi refers to Mehmed II's army as "victorious Turkish army."

    Solakzade (17th century) refers to Cem Sultan as "son of the Turk who conquered Constantinople" and "son of the Turkish padishah."

    • "Bunları Türk’e verelim. Türkçe öğrensinler. Bunları dahi çeri edelim dedi. Tamam ki Müsülman oldılar, Türk bunları nice yıllar kullandı. Andan kapuya getirdiler. Akbörk geydürdiler. Adın ezelçeri iken yeniçeri kodılar"
    Aşıkpazade (15th century) on janissary recruits and Turkish families who raised them

    • "Konur Hisarı’nın tekfuruna Kalakonya derler idi. Haylı bahadır kafir idi. Türk kim Rumeli’ne geçti, ol kafir hiç at arkasından inmedi"
    Aşıkpaşazade (15. century) on the Eastern Roman resistance in Rumelia

    • "Ve çok köyler bu Türk kavmını gördüler. Müsülman oldular.”
    Aşıkpaşazade (15. century) on the Turkish advancement in Rumelia

    • "Eğer elçiye ölüm olsaydı, fil’hal seni depelerdim. Ol melun bunun gibi lâf ü güzâf ursa, acebmi ki İslâm kılıcın görmemişdür. Kimse tabancasını yemeyen, kendü tabancasın demürden sanur. Ve kedi karanu evde kendüyi arslan tevehhüm eder. İnşallah ana Türk erliğin gösterem."
    Neşri, Murad I Hüdavendigar

    •"Ben bu Türk'ü Ungurus ile ve Leh ve Çeh ile tutuşturayım."
    Anonymous, gazavatname. The Eastern Roman emperor supposedly intends to start a war between Turks and Hungarians-Slavs

    Aşıkpaşazade and other Ottoman historians don't hesitate to trace the origin of the dynasty to the mythological khagan of the Turks (Oghuz Khagan).
    I already know those examples, but we should look at the general picture in order to understand what they signify.

    We do not have writings that inform us enough about what the Turkish-speaking Muslims in general thought about their identity themselves for most of the Ottoman era. We get a clearer picture from the 19th century onwards. The examples we have indicate that they in general had a negative view of the Turkish identity and avoided using it for themselves.

    Şevket Süreyya Aydemir, an educated late Ottoman intellectual under the influence of the recently-born Turkish nationalism, in his autobiography relates his conversation with Turkish-speaking Muslim soldiers of Anatolian peasant background during the WWI. He asks them several questions like "what is our religion", "who is our prophet", "what is our nation", and in each case some of the answers he gets are confused, and also no one replies to the last question with the answer "we are Turkish". Then he asks them the question "are we not Turkish", to which all the soldiers reply in the negative with one voice.

    Rahmi Apak, a late Ottoman army officer during the WWI who was also under the influence of Turkish nationalism, in his memoirs of the WWI relates a dialogue between himself and a Turkish-speaking Muslim soldier who consistently answers his question to him "are you Turkish" in the negative and also refuses to call the Ottoman sultan Turkish.

    Yahya Kemal Beyatlı, also a late Ottoman writer, tells in detail how he acquired his Turkish identity and nationalism during his university education at Sorbonne (Paris) under the influence of his French professor historian Albert Sorel, and also tells that most people in his generation were still unaware of their Turkish identity.

    As for the Ottoman elite, it is very well known from the copious Ottoman records that they tended to avoid calling themselves Turkish and tended to reserve that label for the nomadic or peasant Muslims of Anatolia. This continued to be so well until the birth of Turkish nationalism at the late 19th century under Western influence. As for the members of the Ottoman dynasty itself, they also tended to avoid calling themselves Turkish, but they never denied the Turkish origin of the dynasty.
    Last edited by Onur Dincer; 06-25-2020 at 01:00 PM.
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  5. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Both maps are from the same book. The first map shows the classification of main dialects.

    Really? The level of Central Asian ancestry decreases when I use Kurds instead of Ganj_Dareh_Historic. I don't know why.
    Again, there are no native Turkish dialects spoken in places like Hakkari but only Turkish with broken accent spoken by native Kurdish speakers.

    Classifying it together with Turkish of Gümüshane as "eastern dialects" makes absolutely no sense.

    Probably there is no mention a Kurdish either in the same book.

    To be honest I am critical when it comes to generally Middle Eastern sources (regardless of ethicity or country).

    There is also a professor, who was the president of Turkish Historical Society until 2008 who claimed something like 1/3 of Kurds are in reality Kurdified Turkmens, 1/3 Kurds are crypto-Armenians.

    And also 8-part documentary in state TV with a lot of "professors" and "experts" (from 2017) about proving that a Kurdish tribe is actually Turkmen tribe migrated from Central Asia (while the people speak Kurmanji in footages):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqL-VBs3bkk

    It is not only Turkish identity that is attacked. I have nothing against Turkmens or being Turkmen, but claiming something that we are not is because of dislike of other ethnic backgrouds and to shame us from our ethnic backgroud.
    Last edited by mountain; 06-25-2020 at 12:18 PM.

  6. #224
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    They are. Just sit for pretty long time on the Levante so their dna changed. Its for example like Gypsys they sit on Some places in Europe and their dna changed by the Geographic region. Same the Jews or any close community. Greeks doesnt mixed with Turks . And thats why if you take 50% Levantine Population such as Lebanese and 50% South to Central Greeks the cluster will drop you on Cypriot. If you take 50% Turkish with 50% Greek It wont put you as Cypriot.

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    I would think, based on the cumulative outcomes achieved through the previous posts, that Greek Cypriots didn't "slowly become more Levantine-like" over time.

    They're surprisingly Mycenaean-shifted for such a distally-located population (see my models in pgs 7-10 from memory) and the non-Mycenaean majority of their ancestry is basically a transplanted variant of BA E. Mediterranean (see Erikl86's astute observation a couple pages after the models I posted).

    As such, Greek Cypriots are probably a fairly static representation of what happened in Cyprus after the decline of the Mycenaeans and the migration of their late Iron Age descendants towards the island.

    Perhaps they did receive some unknown %age of additional E. Mediterranean admixture afterwards, but it wouldn't be significant (>10%) if the pre-Mycenaean Cypriot population were E. Med BA-like, which is the most parsimonious deduction we have right now.

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