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Thread: Are Cypriots Greek at all?

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    The ancient Greek states and the Roman Empire had a very advanced civilization for their times that was capable of assimilating a lot of local communities without even mixing with them.
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  3. #22
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    That said, I've seen all living West Asian Greek groups modeled well as having at least some Mycenaean-like ancestry. We can safely assume the Mycenaean-like stuff is indeed a signal of migration from Greece itself into Anatolia, unless one wants to make the unlikely case that such ancestry actually came from Mycenaean-like people living north of Greece.

    So Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks are not just descended of native West Asians that language-shifted to Greek; they do have at least some ancestry from Greece itself, which is why they're pulled toward the Aegean in PCAs relative to their neighbors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    They would be Greek even if they were 100% Sidon BA-like. Greeks are like Jews; they are not a genetic monolith.

    As for the genetic history of the Levantine component on the island, we don't have any relevant ancient DNA so we have no idea how the Cypriot gene pool formed. The best we can do is make some educated guesses.
    Agree with you. But agree with your second sentence only in a loose sense since the Greeks have been far less tribalistic than the Jews since at least the Hellenistic times. The Jews, lacking even states for most of the last 2000 years, have had to be tribalistic during most of that era in order to survive as a community. That is probably why most of the modern Jewish groups have some common Levantine genetic background irrespective of the historical regions they have lived in and the high levels of admixtures they have from the various local communities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    That said, I've seen all living West Asian Greek groups modeled well as having at least some Mycenaean-like ancestry. We can safely assume the Mycenaean-like stuff is indeed a signal of migration from Greece itself into Anatolia, unless one wants to make the unlikely case that such ancestry actually came from Mycenaean-like people living north of Greece.

    So Pontic and Cappadocian Greeks are not just descended of native West Asians that language-shifted to Greek; they do have at least some ancestry from Greece itself, which is why they're pulled toward the Aegean in PCAs relative to their neighbors.
    You could be right. But we still lack the crucial pre-Greek Iron Age samples from the various parts of Asia Minor and Southern Italy to be sure of that. From Cyprus we do not even have any ancient genome yet.
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    You're right; it's not all that firm a ground. We don't even have good stuff from pre-Greek IA Anatolia yet. The best I can really do is use Kaman Kalehoyuk MLBA and something like Georgian Laz as proxies for native populations, and even with that I can't replicate the Empuries/Mycenaean signal in Pontics through Vahaduo. I'm pretty sure I've seen Agamemnon do something with that, but it's all foggy now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    You're right; it's not all that firm a ground. We don't even have good stuff from pre-Greek IA Anatolia yet. The best I can really do is use Kaman Kalehoyuk MLBA and something like Georgian Laz as proxies for native populations, and even with that I can't replicate the Empuries/Mycenaean signal in Pontics through Vahaduo. I'm pretty sure I've seen Agamemnon do something with that, but it's all foggy now.
    The Laz probably came to the region around Rizounta well after the Greeks came to East Pontus and founded Trapezounta and Rizounta. The historical Kingdom of Lazica was located in modern-day western Georgia. Genetics also seems to confirm this as the Laz seem too Georgian-like genetically compared to the populations around them in East Pontus and northern Greater Armenia.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazica

    https://nezihseven.wordpress.com/2020/05/04/dna/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Bad fit.
    What is good fit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greekscholar View Post
    Cypriots are absolutely Greek, regardless of how they model on these tools. Ethnicity does not equal genetic populations, it is based on self-identification, shared culture, history, etc.
    This is not about culture or how people identify themselves. It is genetical thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayetooey View Post
    They have been Greek for thousands of years and are Greek. The issue is that you’re looking at the modern map of Greece and forgetting Greeks historically inhabited a much wider area which spanned three continents so logically there will be great genetic diversity. I would not consider Cypriots European but I would consider them Greek and that isn’t a contradictory statement because some identities transcend continental boundaries.

    I don't ask about their culture or identity, I try to ask about it:

    "Do Cypriots even come from Greek inhabitants of the continent, or just local people of Levant who adopt Greek language and identity?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    They are a blent of northwest Cannaite population, a bronze Age Anatolian similar population group and Greeks. Their steppe admixture is probably coming from Greeks. Thought it depends the individual some of them plot more to Aegean spectrum while others to the Levant.
    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    They would be Greek even if they were 100% Sidon BA-like. Greeks are like Jews; they are not a genetic monolith.

    As for the genetic history of the Levantine component on the island, we don't have any relevant ancient DNA so we have no idea how the Cypriot gene pool formed. The best we can do is make some educated guesses.
    I do not ask about the language of Cyprus or its identification, I ask about their genetics. As far as Jews are concerned, we know that modern Jewish groups have some Jewish origin and some origin from other groups.
    Ashkenazi part, Polish and Italian, Sephardic part, Spanish and Portuguese.

    Quote Originally Posted by NixYO View Post
    Here is one model I ran with nMonte3 and Vahaduo:

    nMonte3:
    Code:
    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Palestinian_Beit_Sahour                Armenian           Sicilian_East 
                   3.668093                5.181980                5.317600 
           Russian_Smolensk 
                  20.102965 
    
    [1] "2. FULL TABLE nMONTE"
    [1] "penalty= 0.001"
    [1] "Ncycles= 1000"
    
    [...]
    
    [1] "distance%=1.4226"
    
    	 Cypriot
    
    Palestinian_Beit_Sahour,52.2
    Sicilian_East,26
    Armenian,20.6
    Russian_Smolensk,1.2
    Vahaduo:
    Code:
    Distance to:	Cypriot
    0.03668093	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    0.05181980	Armenian
    0.05317600	Sicilian_East
    0.20102965	Russian_Smolensk
    
    Target: Cypriot
    Distance: 1.2765% / 0.01276507
    46.6	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
    34.8	Sicilian_East
    18.6	Armenian
    So then they are mainly from DNA of West Asia and the Levant, and from 1/4 to 1/3 of the Sicilians, and Sicilians are already strongly mixed in Levant and North Africa.

    In other words, very little DNA of mainland Greece within the population of Cyprus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Yes we Cypriots are Greeks if we choose to be, which actually includes the vast majority of the Cypriot Greek population. The Greek nation (like many others) has never been a monolith and certainly Cypriot Greeks do not have the Slav, Vlach, or Arvanite input of continental Greeks. My nearest proximity matches are consistently to the Dodecanese. I could post examples, but I don't wish to because as I have stated above, it is our choice to feel Greek. That's all that matters. In terms of specific populations, I am also very close to Romaniote Jews (one PCA even plots me identically to a particular Romaniote). And yet I am not a Jew and he or she is not a Cypriot Greek.

    Ethnic identity is a social construct based on certain dynamic essentialist factors. Greek has been spoken in Cyprus since the Late Bronze Age, and during the the First Millenium BCE, the majority of the City Kingdoms were Greek speaking. The linguistic continuity continued throughout Late Antiquity, Byzantium, Medieval and Modern history. I personally am also extremely proud of the Canaanite input via the Phoenicians and Maronites, but that does not change our ethnic identity by one Greek iota. We have a shared language, religion, customs, cuisine, oral traditions and music. I could go on at length but I don't need to because we are as much a part of Hellenism as my Pontian, Epirote, Zakynthian, Cretan, and Cappadocian brothers. And what does it matter that the Pontians are the most genetic outliers of all Greeks? They are an integral part of the fabric of what it is to be 'Greek'.

    Would you challenge the ethnic identity of Italians? Even though southern Italians and Cypriots share significant genetic signatures that the former don't have with northerners? Are we really not comprehending the fact that southern Italians, Aegean islanders, Cretans and Cypriots are part of a recognised Mediterranean genetic continuum?

    I would never dream of challenging the Arab identity of those who choose to possess one. Those Lebanese that choose to feel 'Arab' are accordingly part of the same 'imagined community' as say Moroccans, to use Benedict Anderson's phrase. Those Lebanese who don't feel Arab are not. It's quite simple really. There are a growing number of Arabic-speakers in Lebanon who see themselves as Levantine Greeks. I say, "welcome to the club, the more the merrier". Mizrahi, Sephardi and Ashkenazi Jews are all part of the wider Jewish community whatever their genetic differences. I don't have one Anglo-Saxon gene in my body but am proudly British, in addition to anything else. Can someone possibly challenge that? Nor would I dream of challenging the Turkish ethnic identity of my Turkish Cypriot friends who plot closer to Greek Cypriots than to Anatolian Turks.

    One has to be particularly careful, especially in these difficult times, to use racial or genetic profiling to tell others what they are or are not. Most of us will not accept ethnic designations imposed upon us by others through their anachronistic colonial mindset. The question in the way it has been phrased is offensive. There are, however, other genetics fora out there where this type of question constitutes the staple diet of members. Anthrogenica has never been one of them.
    This is a genetical thread, no a cultural thread. If I said this question wrong, apologize, but English is not for me the native language and so it is not for me easy to use English.

    And yes, southern Italians are not genetical Italians. They are Greeks who received mixtures in the Middle East, North Africa and Normandy, and then adopted the Italian language. But these are not genetical Italians.

    Most Americans, regardless of their origin, speak English, but that does not make them a genetical Englishmen.

    In the case of Jews, they plot differently, but they all come from the original ancient Levant Jews, but they all had mixtures with different groups.

    While for Italians, not all of them come from ancient Italians, many of them are simply Greeks from Italy and others in the far north. I know that South Tyrol has heavy Austrian DNA in it.

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    This is really over-fitted, but I think the below highlights that Christians, Jews and Muslims from the Western side of Anatolia certainly share an ancient origin, despite comprising other pretty unique admixtures to themselves. I know nativity and sense of homeland is a touchy subject. Apologies to derail slightly. Regarding Cypriots, I think Greek and Turkish ones are today just as genetically native as one-another from what I've seen.

    Random.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracow View Post
    What is good fit?



    This is not about culture or how people identify themselves. It is genetical thread.




    I don't ask about their culture or identity, I try to ask about it:

    "Do Cypriots even come from Greek inhabitants of the continent, or just local people of Levant who adopt Greek language and identity?"



    Thank you



    I do not ask about the language of Cyprus or its identification, I ask about their genetics. As far as Jews are concerned, we know that modern Jewish groups have some Jewish origin and some origin from other groups.
    Ashkenazi part, Polish and Italian, Sephardic part, Spanish and Portuguese.



    So then they are mainly from DNA of West Asia and the Levant, and from 1/4 to 1/3 of the Sicilians, and Sicilians are already strongly mixed in Levant and North Africa.

    In other words, very little DNA of mainland Greece within the population of Cyprus.



    This is a genetical thread, no a cultural thread. If I said this question wrong, apologize, but English is not for me the native language and so it is not for me easy to use English.

    And yes, southern Italians are not genetical Italians. They are Greeks who received mixtures in the Middle East, North Africa and Normandy, and then adopted the Italian language. But these are not genetical Italians.

    Most Americans, regardless of their origin, speak English, but that does not make them a genetical Englishmen.

    In the case of Jews, they plot differently, but they all come from the original ancient Levant Jews, but they all had mixtures with different groups.

    While for Italians, not all of them come from ancient Italians, many of them are simply Greeks from Italy and others in the far north. I know that South Tyrol has heavy Austrian DNA in it.
    What is Italian for you? Italy is just the name of a historical region stretching from the Alps to Sicily and the modern country founded on that historical region. The modern "Italian language" is just one of the many languages of Italy. BTW, the ancient Greeks colonized only the coasts of Southern Italy (including Sicily), not the interior regions, and not all the coasts, so whatever Hellenization later happened in the interior parts of Southern Italy probably happened just through the assimilation of the locals by and large (probably the same thing is the case for most of the interior parts of Asia Minor).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    This is really over-fitted, but I think the below highlights that Christians, Jews and Muslims from the Western side of Anatolia certainly share an ancient origin, despite comprising other pretty unique admixtures to themselves. I know nativity and sense of homeland is a touchy subject. Apologies to derail slightly. Regarding Cypriots, I think Greek and Turkish ones are today just as genetically native as one-another from what I've seen.

    Random.JPG
    For the Central Asian Turkic ancestry, I would recommend you to use the sample TUR_Ottoman:MA2195 as that individual seems to be a recent Central Asian Turkic immigrant with no Anatolian Greek mix. The other sample TUR_Ottoman:MA2196 is instead heavily mixed with Anatolian Greeks. Both samples lack radiocarbon dating, so they may be from the Seljuk era in Asia Minor instead of the later Ottoman era.
    Last edited by Onur Dincer; 06-15-2020 at 01:00 PM.
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