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Thread: Do Americans Blacks Have DNA from an Englishman?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The definition of what constitutes a legal rape by custom or general law may vary a lot by time and culture in itself. Then even if you agree an act constitutes a rape, there are different degrees and so on. Its more complicated than some people want it to be. Slavery too was not always the same and can be differentiated.
    Its not like everything the current US law is proclaiming was the gold standard throughout all of human history. Anybody interested just needs to read into another time and culture's customs to get an impression. Concerning the examples of mixed couples living in a marriage-like relationship speak for themselves and the institution of the concubinage was widespread in many cultures. Every single case has to be looked at in its own right and without knowing the exact circumstances, nothing can be said and judged. If there is no written source, for all we know, it might not even have been the slave owner, but a white worker on the farm or whatever. Who knows what took place without having real insights?
    I concur. What may appear to be the case is often far more complicated than meets the eye initially.

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  3. #32
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    I also have several cousins with substantial SSA genetics.
    The Southern Aristocrats' preference of marrying cousins, makes establishing our exact ancestor near impossible.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Especially on 23andme a lot of people test for health reasons, not genealogy. They opt in for sharing information, which is good nevertheless, but don't care for the account any more. In two cases I got this confirmed by cousins from another site, which responded, telling me their relatives just did it for health reasons. So the response rates are generally very bad on 23andme, and not that good elsewhere too. I have a handful of fairly close German cousins from my ancestral villages, the response rate on a different site was exactly zero. Another two close matches seem to have deceased in the meantime, after having tested in their 80's and so on.
    There are many reasons why people don't respond. If you get a response, and the responding side even knows something about its ancestry beyond the 2nd generation, you are lucky...
    In my experience with myself and my tested relatives, response rates of Jewish matches are higher than matches from most other populations, so Jews in general seem to be very genealogy-focused. I assume this has to do with the fact that until recently Jews were living for centuries as a minority group in every country or region they lived, traditional Jewish culture might be contributing too with its stress on genealogy and lines of descent.
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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    In my experience with myself and my tested relatives, response rates of Jewish matches are higher than matches from most other populations, so Jews in general seem to be very genealogy-focused. I assume this has to do with the fact that until recently Jews were living for centuries as a minority group in every country or region they lived, traditional Jewish culture might be contributing too with its stress on genealogy and lines of descent.
    I think its more related to a lack of deeper family history too. Most Ashkenazi Jewish people have good luck with genetic testing, because of so many tested and their close relatedness, but bad luck with family stories and genealogical documents. Jewish family lines rarely are that uncomplicated as most of the Christian European ancestors, which oftentimes lived in the same 6 villages for many centuries and married within the same circle. The church books too give an excellent source material. Jewish genealogy tends to be more complicated than that imho. A lot of the people, Jewish or not, which test have a rather complicated genealogy with dead ends ealry on (adoptees as a prime example) or a complete paper trail which hit the brick wall.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think its more related to a lack of deeper family history too. Most Ashkenazi Jewish people have good luck with genetic testing, because of so many tested and their close relatedness, but bad luck with family stories and genealogical documents. Jewish family lines rarely are that uncomplicated as most of the Christian European ancestors, which oftentimes lived in the same 6 villages for many centuries and married within the same circle. The church books too give an excellent source material. Jewish genealogy tends to be more complicated than that imho. A lot of the people, Jewish or not, which test have a rather complicated genealogy with dead ends ealry on (adoptees as a prime example) or a complete paper trail which hit the brick wall.
    We're getting way off topic here, so I apologize for contributing to that, but I'd just add that this is the case in my family. I can't speak for Jews in general, but certainly in my family, and I think to some extent among American Jews as a general trend, it's mostly the new generations who are returning to an interest in genealogy. Of course connection with ancestors and the tracing of lineages have been important in Jewish communities for a long time, but my sense is that a lot of this was lost when Jews came to North America. People wanted a new beginning, and even if the first generation was more attached to their roots and culture, which wasn't always the case, their children might have given in to the pressures of assimilation and lost interest in connection to a culture that set them apart. This varies of course from family to family, and religiosity can certainly be a factor, but I think this is a common phenomenon. In my mother's family, most people in the older generations have very little interest in building family trees far into the past. If they have any interest in genealogy, it's more to connect to memories from their own childhood than to go beyond that and discover ancestors they never knew they had. Fortunately, as a wider community, Jews are fortunate to be able to rely on organizations that do have an interest in making genealogical resources available to the wider public, but even though they have some resources, they're not always enough, and sometimes it's simply impossible to recover information, because entire archives have been destroyed. This is the case for my ancestors on my grandmother's line, since the records from their city were burned during the Nazi occupation.

    Anyway, bringing the conversation back to African-Americans, though I'm sure it's impossible to generalize, I'd imagine it's quite common for there to be a lack of interest in genealogy for a number of reasons, including, for instance, the difficulties inherent in tracing family records into slavery times. People might not see the interest in digging when there are so many obstacles out there, and they might not be aware of the advances in African-American genealogy that have been made in the past couple of decades, despite the DNA testing trend and TV shows like Finding Your Roots. Not wanting to reactivate painful memories can be an issue for some. Then again, we have to remember that this isn't just about any particular ethnic or cultural community. Not everybody is an ancestry or genetics nerd like a lot of us on this forum (obviously myself included), and many people simply don't have an interest in spending time investigating this stuff.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think its more related to a lack of deeper family history too. Most Ashkenazi Jewish people have good luck with genetic testing, because of so many tested and their close relatedness, but bad luck with family stories and genealogical documents. Jewish family lines rarely are that uncomplicated as most of the Christian European ancestors, which oftentimes lived in the same 6 villages for many centuries and married within the same circle. The church books too give an excellent source material. Jewish genealogy tends to be more complicated than that imho. A lot of the people, Jewish or not, which test have a rather complicated genealogy with dead ends ealry on (adoptees as a prime example) or a complete paper trail which hit the brick wall.
    Yes, that is why I referred to the general minority status of Jews. Being too dispersed and a minority everywhere and lacking political power, Jews had less chance to keep records of their communities on a wide scale.
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    Father's mtDNA: T2b; Nigde, Turkey
    Paternal grandfather's mtDNA: H2a1; Nigde, Turkey
    Maternal grandfather's mtDNA: H5o; Razgrad, Bulgaria
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    Yes, that is why I referred to the general minority status of Jews. Being too dispersed and a minority everywhere and lacking political power, Jews had less chance to keep records of their communities on a wide scale.
    There were actually some quite wealthy and even ennobled Jewish families, with an excellent genealogical tree. They were also not in a worse position concerning wealth, reading and writing or general records quite often. The main difference is the mobility, name changes and the way the records were gathered. Like for the Christian inhabitants it was just mandatory that they were registered in the church books, whether they wanted or not, and if their families lived in the same place for many generations, you might be able to research half the family record in the church book of just one parish. Something similar was the case for just a few Jewish groups and settlements, and even if, at some point newcomers came in or they moved on, with the records in between often hard to reconstruct. Even more so if they changed their names and profession too or something along these lines. The first and surnames seem to have been less stable and were more often altered generally speaking, that's my impression from my limited experience with such records.
    Christian families which had a similar degree of mobility in space and socially, are oftentimes as difficult to research. But the typical peasants, burghers and aristocrats are easier to research. Take for example a military family or magistrates, there you have to use different sources, but at least the state did hold records. But for other similarly mobile people or in their case the wifes, its much more difficult than in the smaller scale village people.

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  14. #38
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    Sephardic families often have quite good documentation (especially those from Western Europe) and were often economically succesfull, the only problem is, as is with Jews in general, that they often tend to migrate. Connecting to this topic, through Sephardic ancestry I have quite some matches from Suriname (and a few Afro-Americans). I know of family members that owned plantations and had mixed children.

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